10man K'J overtuned / not tested?

[lonely zergling]

It feels like 2/3/10 is a really good setup for this boss atleast it worked really well for the pug. Mage/Hunter/DH/Palas prefered ofcourse for immunitys and DH for the sick burst to push p1. Push p2 with hero to remove knockback into armageddon wombo-combo and he should be ded as intermission 2 and p3 are a bad joke. He doesnt even have a hard enrage you can fight as long as you want in p3. Lame boss on hc imho but yeah "10 man is harder" is true.

Edith: just read the hotfix they added a 10 minute enrage to KJ, nice to see. There are guilds who killed it with killtimes of over 15 minutes xD.

[Deleted]

yeah , on normal you can jsut outheal everything if you fail a few mecanics

I wouldnt say that. But if the group is failing at soaking they deserve to wipe.

[Radio]

Bursting dreadflame doesn't realllllllly need to scale in my opinion. Reasons why I say this after having attempted with both large/medium/small sizes on heroic:
- the goal is to spread such that people only get hit by 0-1 dreadflames, this level of damage tickles even the people targeted
- the above means that even when dreadflames happens at the same time as armageddon, the dreadflame targets can quite easily soak a meteor as well without stressing the healers
- if it lines up with the beam, it doesn't matter cause you can soak the beam with ~3-4 people quite comfortably anyway

The only concern that I can think of is that in the smaller raid sizes, any melee dps who has to run out for bursting is a bigger hit on your raid DPS. We did feel like the DPS reqs were a little bit rougher in a small raid group.

[KaPe]

It's been like that all of Legion. In every raids there's been one fight that's just a big f u to 10-man guildes. Abilties that target a certain amount of people target the same amount of people no matter if you're 10 people or 30 people.

All of that is easily compensated by Armageddon, which is a "big f u" to larger groups.

[BiggestNoob]

It's not overtuned nor is it more difficult. It's fine. Just get better at the game.

[BobAwesome]

It's not overtuned nor is it more difficult. It's fine. Just get better at the game.

I lol'd.

Fire mages were not undertuned. They were fine. You should have just got better at playing the spec.

[BiggestNoob]

I lol'd.

Fire mages were not undertuned. They were fine. You should have just got better at playing the spec.

They were fine (below the 50% mark) and then they got nerfed because Blizzard erroneously thought they were too good. Imagine if KJ got a buff on 10 people the amount of crying we'd see.

[BobAwesome]

They were fine (below the 50% mark) and then they got nerfed because Blizzard erroneously thought they were too good. Imagine if KJ got a buff on 10 people the amount of crying we'd see.

Then why did you abandon yours to main a Demon Hunter?

Now just stop for a second with your normal "my shit don't stink" attitude and look back at every raid released since flex groups were implemented. You'll noticed that in every instance, they've ended up changing mechanics for the 10 man groups because they've time and time again, failed to actually test them at that raid size. Just because you raid in a "hardcore" mythic guild doesn't mean the bosses were fully tested. You, for one, face content that HAS been thoroughly tested for 20 players. Given the group you're raiding with is mythic geared, you completely out gear the normal and heroic content, so your opinion that this boss is not overtuned and completely fine, is totally moot, when you can trivialize and ignore mechanics.

[BiggestNoob]

Then why did you abandon yours to main a Demon Hunter?

Because they completely destroyed Fire and made it completely un-fun to play, while forcing everyone to change specs despite the legendary/AP grind being of prime concern after promising they would not do that?

Now just stop for a second with your normal "my shit don't stink" attitude and look back at every raid released since flex groups were implemented. You'll noticed that in every instance, they've ended up changing mechanics for the 10 man groups because they've time and time again, failed to actually test them at that raid size. Just because you raid in a "hardcore" mythic guild doesn't mean the bosses were fully tested. You, for one, face content that HAS been thoroughly tested for 20 players. Given the group you're raiding with is mythic geared, you completely out gear the normal and heroic content, so your opinion that this boss is not overtuned and completely fine, is totally moot, when you can trivialize and ignore mechanics.

I've had no problem in 10-30 man groups in any of the content. Some mechanics don't scale well but it's never made a substantial change in the difficulty of an encounter. Mechanics sub mythic tend to be inconsequential and trivial to deal with, so having more of them doesn't really do much.

[BobAwesome]

Because they completely destroyed Fire and made it completely un-fun to play, while forcing everyone to change specs despite the legendary/AP grind being of prime concern after promising they would not do that?

Nah, you just needed to git gud.

[BiggestNoob]

Nah, you just needed to git gud.

The difference here is that people actually have no problem doing this content with 10 people or 30 people, meanwhile every mage switched to Frost because Fire was dead last in 95% rankings. These aren't comparable. You can't do 20% more damage than the #1 parse by "gitting gud" even if you have better uptime and better ability usage than that parse, but pre-spreading and reacting to mechanics and killing the boss is doable even if the fight is 5% harder for you.

[BobAwesome]

The difference here is that people actually have no problem doing this content with 10 people or 30 people, meanwhile every mage switched to Frost because Fire was dead last in 95% rankings. These aren't comparable. You can't do 20% more damage than the #1 parse by "gitting gud" even if you have better uptime and better ability usage than that parse, but pre-spreading and reacting to mechanics and killing the boss is doable even if the fight is 5% harder for you.

You do know that I never claimed the fight wasn't possible or harder because Bursting Dreadflame doesn't scale with raid size, right? For someone who loves to be so "logical" and tell others how bad and stupid they are, you really failed here.

[Korban]

LFR Pugged KJ HC tonight. There were A LOT of wipes but we killed him at 04:00 AM in the morning.

We have 25 ppl with 6 healers.

Not too hard, just have to know and follow mechanics. I've seen harder HC-end bosses in previous expansions.

[BiggestNoob]

You do know that I never claimed the fight wasn't possible or harder because Bursting Dreadflame doesn't scale with raid size, right? For someone who loves to be so "logical" and tell others how bad and stupid they are, you really failed here.

If it's not harder, why are you here complaining about it? Who gives a fuck if it doesn't scale? It isn't an issue, which is what I said. If it was substantially more difficult, I'd agree it needs to be changed, but it's not. You're here complaining on a forum about this thing that literally doesn't matter, then trying to claim I'm a hypocrite because Blizzard utterly gutted a spec of all mobility and damage and I switched to another spec that is actually fun to play?

You're pretty fucking stupid, yeah.
Infracted;

[BobAwesome]

If it's not harder, why are you here complaining about it? Who gives a fuck if it doesn't scale? It isn't an issue, which is what I said. If it was substantially more difficult, I'd agree it needs to be changed, but it's not. You're here complaining on a forum about this thing that literally doesn't matter, then trying to claim I'm a hypocrite because Blizzard utterly gutted a spec of all mobility and damage and I switched to another spec that is actually fun to play?

You're pretty fucking stupid, yeah.

Yeah, except you haven't done K'J in a 10man group. All three of your K'J kills were at least 24 people. So why are you even giving your opinion?

[Meiffert]

But Tonight while doing a 20man Kil'jaeden I noticed that only 5 people were targeted with Bursting Dreadflame... Why's that a problem? Because on 10man, 5 people were also targeted with Bursting Dreadflame. Seems like this would be an ability where the number of targets would scale based on the raids size.

Bursting Dreadflame is a spread-out mechanic.
If anything, in general spread-out mechanics are easier with smaller groups.

But in this particular case, the limiting factor isn't really the size of the group, but rather the size of the platform. You need to make sure that the circle do not overlap too much and nobody gets hit by multiple of them.
Since the size of the platform is the same, the amount of debuffs should be the same.

[Xinder]

Try KJ HC 30man and then complain.

No shit. Feels like they scale tank dmg when you get to 30. We wiped for hours last night before cutting to 20. Suddenly we go from never making it close to the dark intermission to almost making the push and dying to the wombo combo that you get if you don't push him fast enough into the dark intermission. On 30 man tanks were just inexplicably getting 1 shot. We had a cocoon up on our Pally tank and he still got 1 shot through it. Took like 9 mil dmg from a felclaw swipe.

[BiggestNoob]

Yeah, except you haven't done K'J in a 10man group. All three of your K'J kills were at least 24 people. So why are you even giving your opinion?

Yes and the boss is harder with larger groups. You're asserting that because you have Bursting Dreadflames with a 10 man group that it's overtuned, ignoring everything else in the fight. Oh and on larger groups it hits for 30-50% harder, FYI.

So what you've failed to take into account is:

1. Bursting Dreadflames hits much harder with more people requiring it be dealt with better, and not overlap with Armageddon Rain soaking, which often requires running all the way to the edge of the platform or even into corners.

2. Armageddon rain scales linearly and is the most important mechanic in P1 and P2, as failure is an instant wipe and it causes huge amounts of damage which can overlap with other mechanics, which hit harder or are generally more deadly with more players.

3. Focused Dreadflames forces positioning issues on large groups and not on small groups, especially when it overlaps with a singularity since everyone needs to move and be in a small corner of the platform, too many soakers kills people and the people who are burning may not be able to soak at all.

So while you think this is a large source of difficulty on the fight, it's not met out with data in logs. For instance, much more soaking has to go on overlapping with adds in a larger group, on top of their increased health, which in general (for Armageddon Rain) means you lose about the same uptime in both (as a percentage of DPS) while having to deal about twice as much damage in the larger group, which means it's actually harder to do in larger groups. And given that Bursting hits for so much less in small groups, you can easily keep one in melee or safely overlap them on rain, which means you're not required to position nearly as well or lose nearly as much uptime.

I fail to see why you think this literal one thing that doesn't scale (but the damage does) while everything else does is making the fight harder or "overtuned" on 10 man when everything else indicates it's more difficult in larger groups.

People are having no problem in large groups on shitty alts with low HP pools for splits and/or for extra loot drops, and plenty of people are killing it just fine at < 15 despite their groups having a sampling bias towards the lower end of the spectrum of player quality.

And as I said before, it doesn't matter, it's not significantly harder at 10 or 30, it's easily doable in both even at low ilvls, so if you're struggling on it the original post remains: get better.

[BobAwesome]

Whole lotta talkin' about something you have no clue about

Wrong.

Who said ToS was the prime raid of the expansion? It's the second tier.

It is the "main" raid. It's like Black Temple was to Burning Crusade. Was there a raid after it? Yeah, Sunwell, but it was more of an after thought.

[Raiju]

It is the "main" raid. It's like Black Temple was to Burning Crusade. Was there a raid after it? Yeah, Sunwell, but it was more of an after thought.

Which argus isn't. It was announced when we first actually saw anything about tomb of sargeras. It wasn't developed post release as filler content.