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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timadin View Post
    The paladin discord seems to disagree with your assessment and have devalued the shoulders to a tier 3 legendary for raiding.
    The paladin discord is completely wrong about most things so who cares what they think

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajwon View Post
    The paladin discord is completely wrong about most things so who cares what they think
    Oh ok, go ahead and ignore the assessment, experiences and analysis of the leaders of our community while providing zero factual analysis countering their points. I won't waste my time and argue with someone who refuses to follow logic and ignores facts. Good day sir.

  3. #23
    High Overlord GSN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timadin View Post
    Oh ok, go ahead and ignore the assessment, experiences and analysis of the leaders of our community while providing zero factual analysis countering their points. I won't waste my time and argue with someone who refuses to follow logic and ignores facts. Good day sir.
    On a fight with heavy tank damage, do you really think that the shoulders are as bad as head/gloves legendary? Or Sephuz on 95% of the fights? Especially at the start of the tier when not all hpalas have 4-set yet.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Timadin View Post
    Also I thought the legendary shoulders lost some effectiveness with the new t20 4set?
    I mentioned the shoulders losing effectiveness with the t20 4set, if you have not acquired the 4 set yet they they are still as effective as they were in t19.


    I am not ranking the shoulders in comparison of the other legendarys in that tier, I am comparing them to the 5 or 6 legendarys that are generally considered better. If you have the t20 4set and your options are the wrists, boots, shoulders, helm, gloves or Sephuz then by all means wear the shoulders. However if you have velen's, the shoulders and prydaz available and you are choosing to wear the shoulders than I think that is a poor choice.

    All of this depends on what legos you have to choose from, but with t20 4set the shoulders are not optimal.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timadin View Post
    Oh ok, go ahead and ignore the assessment, experiences and analysis of the leaders of our community while providing zero factual analysis countering their points. I won't waste my time and argue with someone who refuses to follow logic and ignores facts. Good day sir.
    I'll explain it very simply to you: no matter if the holy pala discord considers the shoulders an A-tier, C-tier or F-tier legendary it doesn't change the situations the shoulders are good in. Everything in this game is situational. I've been using aggramar's stride on progress in tomb, yet the holy pala discord probably considers them the lowest tier of legendary.

    I don't care if you listen to me or not, but if you publicly make your stinky opinion available I'll make sure to correct you publicly as well so everyone else can see.

  6. #26
    High Overlord GSN's Avatar
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    The discord ranking Prydaz as an "A-tier legendary" says a lot, when other legendaries are far more valuable for actual raid healing and thus better on many encounters. If you want raw numbers you might as well prio leech as your main stat, but a beacon on yourself and stand in fire.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by GSN View Post
    The discord ranking Prydaz as an "A-tier legendary" says a lot, when other legendaries are far more valuable for actual raid healing and thus better on many encounters. If you want raw numbers you might as well prio leech as your main stat, but a beacon on yourself and stand in fire.
    I don't think Prydaz is listed so high just because of meter padding. The best ability is availability, especially during progression. Prydaz has decent stats and can be the difference between staying alive and dieing from a mechanic, especially if it is unavoidable damage. I'm not suggesting it is the best lego for every situation but it is a solid choice for most in my opinion. If I could afford to lose the crit from another lego I use, I might give it a try more often.
    Last edited by Timadin; 2017-07-03 at 05:41 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timadin View Post
    I don't think Prydaz is listed so high just because of meter padding. The best ability is availability, especially during progression. Prydaz has decent stats and can be the difference between staying alive and dieing from a mechanic, especially if it is unavoidable damage. I'm not suggesting it is the best lego for every situation but it is a solid choice for most in my opinion. If I could afford to lose the crit from another lego I use I might give it a try more often.
    I agree it's valuable on progression in many cases, however I find the lists for both Raids and M+ misleading on several items. My point was that the discord is not always right, but I believe they are already mentioning that themselves in their guides and encourages you to experiment, so it's not really a big deal.

  9. #29
    I feel like I need to add my opinion about this
    Playing Main Holy Paladin since Vanilla. I have seen every change they made to the class, felt every nerf and every buff.
    I'm keeping an eye on the most forums and blogs about Holy Paladins for extra info and opinions and I have to say this:
    Last Couple of years the Guides on almost every guide is pure trash. They don't take into account anything but raw numbers on useless simulations.
    Healing is not like DPS. It can not be simulated due to the extreme number of factors in a raid environment. You can see how much a perfect rotation would be to a DPS on a single target boss without movement and I agree that it is a baseline info you need. But in healing where even the class of the other healers you play with can change your healing style and effectiveness there can be no simulation.
    Have you tried the shoulders with 2 Blood DKs specced in self-heal?
    Have you tried the Elendril Ring Prior to 7.2.5 while another Holy Pala in the raid also uses it?
    Have you tried healing Tichondrius without breaking the Argus debuff?
    You play differently if you heal with healers that are good/bad/geared/ungeared or if you go FFA or you specify healing rolles etc.
    There is no 100% correct combination of Legendaries or Talents or Trinkets.
    I strongly believe that the best performance is when you chose your Options to suit your playstyle. Using Ilendril while you forget to use Judgement on CD will give you lower healing result than the shoulders for example.
    Don't listen to the guides like they're written in stone and blessed with correctness
    Most of the times even the stat priority is wrong.
    Have seen so many classes that the guides were proposing a stat over another, but that was only if you had a specific legendary without mentioning it anywere (Versatility over Crit for Outlaw Rogues, with Shoulders as an example).
    The same exists for Paladin Tier 19 set. Set 2 bonus was 5% Crit on HS and if you had offpieces with much crit you could get 5% crit on everything
    Always take into account your raid composition, your other healers, their gear and legendaries, your role in the raid team, the tanks you're healing, the duration of the fight which depends on the overall dps, how carefull the other players are, the tactics you use etc.
    Some items are more powerful than others but some people have to play without them till they manage to get them. You cant follow a guide on a spec that proposes to play with Judgement talent because it takes into account that you have the illendril ring without having it, you'll end up low
    I hope the meaning of my post is clear enough

  10. #30
    There is always going to be the "most optimal" 2x leggos set up. There just is. But other leggos exist and they drop first sometimes. I think it's ok to have variety in our choices because not everyone gets lucky. My main rogue is 905, has 9 leggos, and still the best hasn't dropped. Yay. So I have to use another. And that's the design of the system..
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Skybreak View Post
    I feel like I need to add my opinion about this
    Playing Main Holy Paladin since Vanilla. I have seen every change they made to the class, felt every nerf and every buff.
    I'm keeping an eye on the most forums and blogs about Holy Paladins for extra info and opinions and I have to say this:
    Last Couple of years the Guides on almost every guide is pure trash. They don't take into account anything but raw numbers on useless simulations.
    Healing is not like DPS. It can not be simulated due to the extreme number of factors in a raid environment. You can see how much a perfect rotation would be to a DPS on a single target boss without movement and I agree that it is a baseline info you need. But in healing where even the class of the other healers you play with can change your healing style and effectiveness there can be no simulation.
    Have you tried the shoulders with 2 Blood DKs specced in self-heal?
    Have you tried the Elendril Ring Prior to 7.2.5 while another Holy Pala in the raid also uses it?
    Have you tried healing Tichondrius without breaking the Argus debuff?
    You play differently if you heal with healers that are good/bad/geared/ungeared or if you go FFA or you specify healing rolles etc.
    There is no 100% correct combination of Legendaries or Talents or Trinkets.
    I strongly believe that the best performance is when you chose your Options to suit your playstyle. Using Ilendril while you forget to use Judgement on CD will give you lower healing result than the shoulders for example.
    Don't listen to the guides like they're written in stone and blessed with correctness
    Most of the times even the stat priority is wrong.
    Have seen so many classes that the guides were proposing a stat over another, but that was only if you had a specific legendary without mentioning it anywere (Versatility over Crit for Outlaw Rogues, with Shoulders as an example).
    The same exists for Paladin Tier 19 set. Set 2 bonus was 5% Crit on HS and if you had offpieces with much crit you could get 5% crit on everything
    Always take into account your raid composition, your other healers, their gear and legendaries, your role in the raid team, the tanks you're healing, the duration of the fight which depends on the overall dps, how carefull the other players are, the tactics you use etc.
    Some items are more powerful than others but some people have to play without them till they manage to get them. You cant follow a guide on a spec that proposes to play with Judgement talent because it takes into account that you have the illendril ring without having it, you'll end up low
    I hope the meaning of my post is clear enough
    This poster gets it. +1 if I could.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    There is always going to be the "most optimal" 2x leggos set up. There just is. But other leggos exist and they drop first sometimes. I think it's ok to have variety in our choices because not everyone gets lucky. My main rogue is 905, has 9 leggos, and still the best hasn't dropped. Yay. So I have to use another. And that's the design of the system..
    This. There will always be an optimal setup/spec/playstyle for healing efficiency and optimal performance.

  13. #33
    The paladin discord is good, they give nice advice but always remember that healing is unpredictable. What you see in spreadsheets are mere simulations of perfect scenarios that never happen. That's why for example Aura of Sacrifice is far behind. The passive from the aura does "nothing", it just transfers damage to you. Whereas mercy is """always""" healing for free.

    Now when you go to reality, you actually take less damage than the people AoS is protecting, because you almost spam judgement and are tanky as fuck. What is more, mercy has to have people in range AND damaged for its passive to be a thing. So when you have to choose between AoS or AoM, just think about if you need a potent healing cooldown and then the rest of the fight is afking/throwing random bestows on tank, or if damage is "medium" and you are rotating cooldowns separately. Because if you are going to save wings for AoM you might aswell just go for AoS.

    ON: which beacon you use relies purely on your raid composition and healing style. Most go for faith because it's the lazy choice, but it's also very good because tanks take a lot of damage in ToS and you can't be beacon switching all the time. I'd say that lightbringer is something i'd use if we had 2 holy paladins or if our raid healers sucked and just focused on tank healing (which shouldn't be the case).

    The t20 bonus is nice, i'm using it and if you know your shit you can really abuse the 4 piece bonus for a bestow/shock to full heal 3 people. But don't think LoD is really good because of it, it's the beacon healing thing. If LoD was so good, people would be using leg cloak 100% of the time, which isn't happening.
    Last edited by zagoskin; 2017-07-07 at 01:19 PM.

  14. #34
    Well, the fact that not everyone uses cloak 100% doesn't mean its not one of the top legendaries. I used cloak with the ring and got a golden 100 in Harjatan.
    There are logs in Warcraft logs if anyone that wants proof just search Skybreak on Argent Dawn and take my last Harjatan fight and check my ilvl rank.
    That doesn't mean that the cloak is the best item, but it does prove that if it fits your playstyle, raid composition, tactics etc. it is one of the good ones.
    I also used the cloak in every fight in HC Tomb and had not troubles keeping everyone up, whether it was a 10man with 2 healers or a 20 man with 5.
    There is NO optimal setup/spec/playstyle in healing, and the faster people understands that, the faster they will improve their playstyle.

  15. #35
    devo is best aura, cloak has been considered good for months now, if you had troubles 5 healing 20 man heroic i'd be worried

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