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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos View Post
    I remain unconvinced.

    The game is not canon. Who are the 12 leaders? Are they horde? Are they alliance? every boss kill is from two angles, a group of horde, and a group of alliance...which is true?

    This is the fatal flaw of the theory that the game is canon. It can never be, because it can't be nailed down. It's always ambiguous, nebulous. Which by its very definition, can't be canon.
    If the game is not canon, then why do you care what weapons they give us or what we do with them? Nothing going on in the game changes your precious lore if the game is not canon.

    Your argument seems to require the game to be canon to hold any ground, and yet claim the game is not canon.
    Last edited by Fritters154; 2017-07-05 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #42
    Pit Lord Eurytos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritters154 View Post
    If the game is not canon, then why do you care what weapons they give us or what we do with them? Nothing going on in the game changes your precious lore if the game is not canon.

    Your argument seems to require the game to be canon to hold any ground, and yet claim the game is not canon.
    Not at all. I can hold more than two thoughts in my head at once. My initial position at the very start of this was coming from the assumption that the game was not canon. That argument was brought up later.
    The argument about the game being canon or not has no bearing on my thoughts about giving every Tom, Dick and Harry ret paladin the greatest paladin weapon ever, and arguably of Warcraft as a whole. Surely one of the three most famous weapons. It cheapens the allure of the weapon.

    There is no debate that if you play ret paladin right now, you have this weapon...I think that sucks. Whether its canon that only a single ret paladin champion actually has it or not never comes into it. My critique of canon is separate from my critique of Blizz choosing to let ret have the Ashbringer.
    Last edited by Eurytos; 2017-07-05 at 04:40 AM.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos View Post
    Not at all. I can hold more than two thoughts in my head at once. My initial position at the very start of this was coming from the assumption that the game was not canon. That argument was brought up later.
    The argument about the game being canon or not has no bearing on my thoughts about giving every Tom, Dick and Harry ret paladin the greatest paladin weapon ever, and arguably of Warcraft as a whole. Surely one of the three most famous weapons. It cheapens the allure of the weapon.

    There is no debate that if you play ret paladin right now, you have this weapon...I think that sucks. Whether its canon that only a single ret paladin champion actually has it or not never comes into it. My critique of canon is separate from my critique of Blizz choosing to let ret have the Ashbringer.
    but not every one got ashbringer only you did, or only I did.... lore wise it went to you as the player and you alone. sure walking around for game play purposes you see others with it but in the lore they don't have it only you. Now what would have been neat would be if the tech was smart to recognize that and give every other pally you saw a differen't sword so you never saw another artifact weapon that you have in the game world.

    side note, i wonder if i'm the only that refuses to re-skin Ashbringer it just feels wrong....
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    but not every one got ashbringer only you did, or only I did.... lore wise it went to you as the player and you alone. sure walking around for game play purposes you see others with it but in the lore they don't have it only you. Now what would have been neat would be if the tech was smart to recognize that and give every other pally you saw a differen't sword so you never saw another artifact weapon that you have in the game world.

    side note, i wonder if i'm the only that refuses to re-skin Ashbringer it just feels wrong....
    how is it that in the very quote you linked, where I specifically say that these are two different arguments, you try to convince me that they are not...like, really, I just said it. you quoted me! forget about the canon, I don't like what they did with rets and ashbringer. Thats my first point. My second point, brought up by someone else later in the discussion, was that I'm not convinced that the story taking place in game is the exact story taking place in lore/canon, single ret with it, all rets with it, blah blah bnlah, don't care, has no bearing on my first point.

    I feel like I'm just talking in circles. Just close this thread. I'm tired.

    PS if it wasn't clear I absolutely re-skin my Ashbrigner
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos View Post
    how is it that in the very quote you linked, where I specifically say that these are two different arguments, you try to convince me that they are not...like, really, I just said it. you quoted me! forget about the canon, I don't like what they did with rets and ashbringer. Thats my first point. My second point, brought up by someone else later in the discussion, was that I'm not convinced that the story taking place in game is the exact story taking place in lore/canon, single ret with it, all rets with it, blah blah bnlah, don't care, has no bearing on my first point.

    I feel like I'm just talking in circles. Just close this thread. I'm tired.

    PS if it wasn't clear I absolutely re-skin my Ashbrigner

    They seem intertwined to me as far points go... but looking at just your character if you don't you've done enough to justify owning the ashbringer then yes i think mogging it and pretending like you don't have is ok and the best option for you. Personally I think my pally has done more than enough to wield it over the years since vanilla.

    Also of note, I would have been ok with getting something else instead of it, but it works for me. i'm more concerned with what happens to it after legion...
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Would ruin the point of getting prestigious/rare artifact skins.

    Also, there's a bit difference between just changing the name, and changing the appearance (The bodyguard still looks the same)
    I'm well aware it removes the point of getting prestgious skins, that's why they never should've been invented.
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  7. #47
    I think you missed my point....Lore wise it is correct for your character to become the new leader of the paladins. to your second point of everyone having it "cheapens" the weapon...that is silly. This is a MMO. Multiple people will play the same class and spec. The lore does not see millions of champions running around kill bosses and doing dailies...but the GAME does. You need to learn to separate these or you will never truly enjoy an MMO for what it is.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camet View Post
    I think you missed my point....Lore wise it is correct for your character to become the new leader of the paladins. to your second point of everyone having it "cheapens" the weapon...that is silly. This is a MMO. Multiple people will play the same class and spec. The lore does not see millions of champions running around kill bosses and doing dailies...but the GAME does. You need to learn to separate these or you will never truly enjoy an MMO for what it is.
    wow. this is just...when men do this to women they call it mansplaining. I'm not a woman, and I'm not sure what you are, so I'll just call this what it is...condescending bullshit. Seriously, I can enjoy this game however the fuck I want. I don't care how you enjoy it, do whatever you want. More than one way to enjoy the game. I've made my points abundantly clear, you seem to think you can make them clearer, idk wtf, care to tell me how I take a shit? explain to me how its wrong the way i do it?

    It's fine to disagree, lots of people have disagreed with me in this thread. Doesn't change how i feel, but I get their point. Telling me how to enjoy the game...well, just fuck off with that, mate.

    Also, you literally joined this forum within the last 6 days... I've been here for over 8 years, been playing the game slightly longer than that, so, I think I know quite well what I like and enjoy about this game.

    I'm flabbergasted by the arrogance of trying to tell someone else how to enjoy a game. Just amazing.
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  9. #49
    I am Murloc! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos View Post
    You would never have had it. So there would be nothing to give up in this scenario.

    Giving Ashbringer to every goddamn ret paladin was a mistake. 100%.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, the fact that not just anyone can wield the weapon is what makes weapons in this game iconic. It takes a certain level of power. And we don't have it. Clearly. The big names of this game are far more powerful than us champions.

    - - - Updated - - -



    My point, if it wasn't clear, is that is not as good of a story as the one, or along the lines of the one, I'm proposing.
    Also, it bothers me becuase I care about the lore and the story. Giving iconic weapons to every hero who plays this game cheapens it.
    I don't find the vague scenario you outlined to be anywhere near as interesting as what's in game. Sorry.

    And thousands of paladins having Ashbringer is no different from thousands of tanks having Quel'serrar in classic, or hundreds of people getting Illidan's personal warglaives in BC, or god knows how many DK/warr/pallies getting Shadowmourne in Wrath.

    I understand your point - I actually suggested on the alpha forums that we see other player's artifacts as generic weapons. But hey, that's just how these things go sometimes.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I don't find the vague scenario you outlined to be anywhere near as interesting as what's in game. Sorry.

    And thousands of paladins having Ashbringer is no different from thousands of tanks having Quel'serrar in classic, or hundreds of people getting Illidan's personal warglaives in BC, or god knows how many DK/warr/pallies getting Shadowmourne in Wrath.

    I understand your point - I actually suggested on the alpha forums that we see other player's artifacts as generic weapons. But hey, that's just how these things go sometimes.
    I don't think any of the weapons you listed have the status of Ashbringer, in terms of iconic status. However, I have since changed my position on the relative power level of our toons. It seems we are powerful enough to wield it, yet still, I hold to my other claim that I still don't like it. It just seems so obvious to me that Turalyon is going to end up with the weapon. He's top dog paladin these days. He should have it. Maybe we are just a vessel of sorts, holding it until we can bestow it to him. I guess he's not fully aware of Tirions death, at least not until we finally meet up with him. But he knew Tirion. They were part of the first paladins of the Silver Hand, along with Mograine...it makes sense.

    Idk, I've come around a bit on this though, I do appreciate the discussion.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos View Post
    wow. this is just...when men do this to women they call it mansplaining. I'm not a woman, and I'm not sure what you are, so I'll just call this what it is...condescending bullshit. Seriously, I can enjoy this game however the fuck I want. I don't care how you enjoy it, do whatever you want. More than one way to enjoy the game. I've made my points abundantly clear, you seem to think you can make them clearer, idk wtf, care to tell me how I take a shit? explain to me how its wrong the way i do it?

    It's fine to disagree, lots of people have disagreed with me in this thread. Doesn't change how i feel, but I get their point. Telling me how to enjoy the game...well, just fuck off with that, mate.

    Also, you literally joined this forum within the last 6 days... I've been here for over 8 years, been playing the game slightly longer than that, so, I think I know quite well what I like and enjoy about this game.

    I'm flabbergasted by the arrogance of trying to tell someone else how to enjoy a game. Just amazing.
    Once again...missing the point. Yes I made an account recently....but I have been playing WoW since the start and have played many other MMOs. I was speaking about the spirit of the MMO section of gaming in general...if this offence you then I am "flabbergasted". You are corrected that you can enjoy the game however you see fit, but the rage from other people having something that looks like your stuff is some what narrow minded (IMO) and does not make sense for someone who is playing the same game as millions of other people. You are welcome to be upset about whatever you want, but most of us will just shake our heads at the fact that you are mad about something that is a part of playing an MMO.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camet View Post
    Once again...missing the point. Yes I made an account recently....but I have been playing WoW since the start and have played many other MMOs. I was speaking about the spirit of the MMO section of gaming in general...if this offence you then I am "flabbergasted". You are corrected that you can enjoy the game however you see fit, but the rage from other people having something that looks like your stuff is some what narrow minded (IMO) and does not make sense for someone who is playing the same game as millions of other people. You are welcome to be upset about whatever you want, but most of us will just shake our heads at the fact that you are mad about something that is a part of playing an MMO.
    1)I'm not raging. I posted a topic I wanted to talk about. I defended my positions. I changed my positions. Ad hominem.
    2)"something that looks like yours"...complete mischaracterization of my point. We are not talking about some random weapon. Its a specific weapon, with a lot of history, one of the most iconic in the entire Warcraft universe. This further misses my point, since by my own argument, I would not have the weapon either. It's not that I want it for myself, its that I think no player should have it because of its stature compared to ours.
    3)I'm not mad. I just don't like the direction Blizz chose, and think they could have done a different story. More ad hominem.
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  13. #53
    Fair points sir/mam. Thank you for clarification. Once again not offence intended. To your second statement, do you also feel this way about other weapons like the Doomhammer or the Eagle spear? I understand both points of it should go to major plot characters as attish or however you spell the staff of the guardian, but I also enjoy the fact that I get the pleasure of welding one of my favorite fantasy weapons. It is a mixed bag of emotions that I have noticed has split the WoW community somewhat.

  14. #54
    I don't think the Ashbringer has been ruined by all paladins having it any more than say, Deathwing was ruined because everyone got to kill him.
    The thing is, anything epic and out of reach becomes less amazing after it becomes attainable. Argus has been a big deal to fans for a while but they are already talking about it being cheep because it's only a .x patch content rather than a full expansions.
    People say LFR and normal mode cheapen raiding so what ever.

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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camet View Post
    Fair points sir/mam. Thank you for clarification. Once again not offence intended. To your second statement, do you also feel this way about other weapons like the Doomhammer or the Eagle spear? I understand both points of it should go to major plot characters as attish or however you spell the staff of the guardian, but I also enjoy the fact that I get the pleasure of welding one of my favorite fantasy weapons. It is a mixed bag of emotions that I have noticed has split the WoW community somewhat.
    I do feel this way about Doomhammer, though less so since I've only played shaman sparingly, and I've mained a paladin since I started. But if I were to be consistent, I would say yes. Don't have any concerns of the eagle spear. I think they could have made up something, and given us a cool story, just like any of the other specs, and it would have been successful. Theres like 5 or so weapons in Warcraft lore that hold these positions of respect in my mind. Doomhammer, Ashbringer, Frostmourne...and maybe a few others I can't think of. Shalamayne, maybe. Though, considering Varians death...that woulda been cool to give to fury warriors. Warglaives are sort in that category, but only really because Illidan came back. But I still would put Ashbringer and Doomhammer into a different category, because they sorta pass down in a certain line...I don't know, its not an entirely rational position I'm holding, I see that. It's really just a feeling. I would say Atiesh might be another one. Honestly, I never really had those concerns back then, only now since artifacts were chosen. Again, not entirely a clear cut rule or whatever in my mind.

    I've had a few thoughts about how they wrap up the story of our artifacts and take them away, which sorta scares me, because I think a story about "sacrificing" them to beat a great titan like Sargeras would make sense...but that would really suck for Ashbringer.
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