A sneak peak into Italy and what Europe should be

[Deleted]

Hello boys, i'm Italian, and while i absolutely love the idea and what Europe SHOULD means , in reality we are far as possible from that idea. In fact it's getting worse and worse each year.

But fellow europeans, do you see a future where Europe will finally become a united and more cohesive place?
My answer is very simple: NO it won't, BUT, we can definetly get better at it and get nearer to that idea.

Maybe you don't know this, but Italy is like a blueprint for Europe.
Italy is divided in 20 regions, and every region, while all being Italian, share A LOT of differencies. Dialect, political views, cooking, general ways of living can change quite drastically. Infact living for example in south italy is a completely different experience then living in north italy.

This is because what happened in our past that lead to different reigns and countries, not to mention our position is quite strategic and we were influenced by basically every possible civilization in history.

So the differences are there and are very visible, even if you are a stranger the first time visiting our country you can definetly see all of the above.
Does this lead to "conflict"? Yes, but at the same time it's a great value to have so many different aspects, thoughts, views united under a single banner. The problem is making them work together.

That bring us back to the Europe problem as you can see the similarities are there. YOu can maybe consider Europe as a "Giant Italy" with the differences i descripted even more marked and strong. That's why i do not see Europe being a really true united place to live in.

Even now in 2017 we have still all of those prejudice between us, these are laughable and ironic, but kinda true at the same time.

Examples: "France are Italy are BAD cousins" "Germany is still third reich style of government" "All people in northern countries (denmark, norway, sweden) are sad" "Eastern Europe is just a bunch of drunken dudes and criminals", "Everyone laugh at Italy, the fool of the village", "Everyone is a drug addict in Netherland", and many more.

These are exagerations, and hoe people percive one another is an individual effort as well, but all of these should go away if we want Europe to be what it should be in the future.

Thanks

[Independent voter]

I thought this would be a Tennisace thread.

[Vankrys]

It's easy to destroy but hard to build.

I support the EU because it's a starting point to create a unified, powerful Europe. If you always give up, leave or break at the first sign of difficulty, you'll never get anywhere.

Instead, you improve, you iterate, you modify and refine, righting the wrongs. That is why i don't think brexit was a wise decision, it's more like an emotional decision, a nation tantrum. But all it does is an attempt to sabotage the effort made to unify Europe.

While the United States were created on the idea of freedom and free enterprise, Europe ideals are based in social equality and solidarity.

[Wikiy]

But fellow europeans, do you see a future where Europe will finally become a united and more cohesive place?
My answer is very simple: NO it won't, BUT, we can definetly get better at it and get nearer to that idea.

Based on the current opinion polls and political situation in Europe (we're united in our irritation by the UK currently), one might be tempted to say that a federate Europe is on the horizon. I'm not so sure about this. I think it hinges heavily on a key issue - the reform of the EU. Not its institution as much as its ways. The EU is, in principle and even in practice (when it comes to elections) democratic. The problem is in a lack of transparency. I think all executive EU meetings (that do not involve defense or international relations, of course) should be live-streamed and open for viewing at some EU site. It doesn't matter how many people would watch this, but it would most definitely affect the decision making process.

Other than this, while I think that Germany and France are quite capable of leading Europe, it is simply contradictory with the whole idea of what Europe should be to have a single state leader (such as Merkel) carry so much weight in crises like the one involving Greece. I'm not sure how this can be changed, but there must be a way. Overall, it would probably be best for Europe to form (in a democratic way) a reform council some time soon after Brexit actually occurs. This reform council would have as its main goals the following:

1. Reform of the monetary and fiscal union, as well as its further integration. The focus here would be to make the EU more resilient to financial crises. Furthermore, either the Euro should be abolished, or every single member state should be forced to adopt the Euro within a phase-in period of up to 10 years.

2. Reform of the European Council. Specifically, a concrete voting system should be established, with each country having one vote. The idea of decisions being made there by consensus is nutty. I can imagine Merkel giving a speech about what she wants to do, and everyone nodding their heads.

3. Establishment of a common defence (including an EU army), but more importantly, a common foreign policy. This would include a strategy with regards to situations like immigrant crises (although it's not likely that a similar one will happen any time soon). Europe needs to know what to do and it needs to be united when these things happen.

[Deleted]

Based on the current opinion polls and political situation in Europe (we're united in our irritation by the UK currently), one might be tempted to say that a federate Europe is on the horizon. I'm not so sure about this. I think it hinges heavily on a key issue - the reform of the EU. Not its institution as much as its ways. The EU is, in principle and even in practice (when it comes to elections) democratic. The problem is in a lack of transparency. I think all executive EU meetings (that do not involve defense or international relations, of course) should be live-streamed and open for viewing at some EU site. It doesn't matter how many people would watch this, but it would most definitely affect the decision making process.

Other than this, while I think that Germany and France are quite capable of leading Europe, it is simply contradictory with the whole idea of what Europe should be to have a single state leader (such as Merkel) carry so much weight in crises like the one involving Greece. I'm not sure how this can be changed, but there must be a way. Overall, it would probably be best for Europe to form (in a democratic way) a reform council some time soon after Brexit actually occurs. This reform council would have as its main goals the following:

1. Reform of the monetary and fiscal union, as well as its further integration. The focus here would be to make the EU more resilient to financial crises. Furthermore, either the Euro should be abolished, or every single member state should be forced to adopt the Euro within a phase-in period of up to 10 years.

2. Reform of the European Council. Specifically, a concrete voting system should be established, with each country having one vote. The idea of decisions being made there by consensus is nutty. I can imagine Merkel giving a speech about what she wants to do, and everyone nodding their heads.

3. Establishment of a common defence (including an EU army), but more importantly, a common foreign policy. This would include a strategy with regards to situations like immigrant crises (although it's not likely that a similar one will happen any time soon). Europe needs to know what to do and it needs to be united when these things happen.

Yah pretty much all fo those things should be done. There is sucha disconnect between the Europe government and the people of the varius country it's embarassing

[Deleted]

Italy had how many governments since the end of the second world war? What was the average inflation pre-Euro? On the Transparancy International corruption index, Italy (and the Balkans) are closer to Africa than to the rest of europe.

Even the many europeans who like Italy and Italians, sure as hell don't want to live in a 'Giant Italy'.

[Deleted]

Italy had how many governments since the end of the second world war? What was the average inflation pre-Euro? On the Transparancy International corruption index, Italy (and the Balkans) are closer to Africa than to the rest of europe.

Even the many europeans who like Italy and Italians, sure as hell don't want to live in a 'Giant Italy'.

im pretty sure you didnt understand the meaning of what i was saying then. It was just to say that you can compare the 2 situations because they have similarities, not to live in a giant italy literally. I wouldn't live in a giant italy and i'm italian.

[Deleted]

im pretty sure you didnt understand the meaning of what i was saying then.

That's quite possible. Still, closer cooperation, higher interdependance - especially concerning the € - in my view added to the prejudice you mention and the infighting we are experiencing now. It seems to be much worse than it was 20 years ago.

[Deleted]

That's quite possible. Still, closer cooperation, higher interdependance - especially concerning the € - in my view added to the prejudice you mention and the infighting we are experiencing now. It seems to be much worse than it was 20 years ago.

ye agree with that, it's jsut getting worse and worse

[Wikiy]

Italy had how many governments since the end of the second world war? What was the average inflation pre-Euro? On the Transparancy International corruption index, Italy (and the Balkans) are closer to Africa than to the rest of europe.

I wouldn't know about the other Balkan country that's in the EU (Slovenia) besides my own country (Croatia), but it's quite ironic that the latter is more transparent than the EU itself. Sure, the politicians are crap, and the people have a shit mentality due to most of them growing up in a communist environment (this will pass when they die), but transparency is not what we are missing. All parliament and government sessions are live-streamed and even released on Facebook on YouTube afterwards. So yeah, you shouldn't trust everything you see on indexes made by mostly Western Europeans/Americans who're both quite ignorant when it comes to the state of former communist countries.

[Zoranon]

Based on the current opinion polls and political situation in Europe (we're united in our irritation by the UK currently), one might be tempted to say that a federate Europe is on the horizon. I'm not so sure about this. I think it hinges heavily on a key issue - the reform of the EU. Not its institution as much as its ways. The EU is, in principle and even in practice (when it comes to elections) democratic. The problem is in a lack of transparency. I think all executive EU meetings (that do not involve defense or international relations, of course) should be live-streamed and open for viewing at some EU site. It doesn't matter how many people would watch this, but it would most definitely affect the decision making process.

Other than this, while I think that Germany and France are quite capable of leading Europe, it is simply contradictory with the whole idea of what Europe should be to have a single state leader (such as Merkel) carry so much weight in crises like the one involving Greece. I'm not sure how this can be changed, but there must be a way. Overall, it would probably be best for Europe to form (in a democratic way) a reform council some time soon after Brexit actually occurs. This reform council would have as its main goals the following:

1. Reform of the monetary and fiscal union, as well as its further integration. The focus here would be to make the EU more resilient to financial crises. Furthermore, either the Euro should be abolished, or every single member state should be forced to adopt the Euro within a phase-in period of up to 10 years.

2. Reform of the European Council. Specifically, a concrete voting system should be established, with each country having one vote. The idea of decisions being made there by consensus is nutty. I can imagine Merkel giving a speech about what she wants to do, and everyone nodding their heads.

3. Establishment of a common defence (including an EU army), but more importantly, a common foreign policy. This would include a strategy with regards to situations like immigrant crises (although it's not likely that a similar one will happen any time soon). Europe needs to know what to do and it needs to be united when these things happen.

People want more integration only in your dreams, thankfully.

As to your points:
1. Absolutely not. I have zero desire to be liable for debts of other countries. Euro should be abolished, it has done enough damage already

2. No the qualified majority in the other council was bad enough.

3. No we have NATO and I don't see why my country should accept German foreign policy which is all your allegedly common foreign policy would be.

This nonsense about further integration needs to end and the opposite needs to happen, if EU wants to survive, it must go back to being a free trade zone. If EU stays on its current course it will eventually fall apart like Austria-Hungary if we are lucky and like Yugoslavia if we are unlucky.

Bottom line is, I have no desire to be ruled over by French and German politicians and voters.

[Deleted]

1. Reform of the monetary and fiscal union, as well as its further integration. The focus here would be to make the EU more resilient to financial crises.

So how are you planing to mange countries who fail to mange there economy? It easy to say reform, but what do you want EU shall do? Give "free" money to countries in crisis? Forced control over their finances?

2. a concrete voting system should be established, with each country having one vote. The idea of decisions being made there by consensus is nutty. I can imagine Merkel giving a speech about what she wants to do, and everyone nodding their heads.

So small Luxenburg shall have as much influence as big Poland?

Establishment of a common defence (including an EU army), but more importantly, a common foreign policy. This would include a strategy with regards to situations like immigrant crises

So you want individual countries give up most of its power to the EU parlament? What will hapen if you do not like the decision? Like country X need to take in Y refugees from a common EU refugee pool....

[Wikiy]

People want more integration only in your dreams, thankfully.

I hope you're aware that almost half (~45%) of all Europeans actively support further integration towards a federation of nation-states, which you can check here (page 154). Mind you, the number that don't know go from 10-30% from country to country. I.e., if there was a referendum for that back then, EU would be a federation right now. You should also keep in mind that this was 2014, when people had worse views of the EU. In fact, that was the all-time low for the EU image. You can cross-check with Eurobarometer from 2017, if you don't believe that. Another thing to note - if you disregard the UK in the result for how many support a federation (in the UK, it was 21%), then you'd get that about 50% of Europeans supported it. Imagine what that number is right now.

Not that I actually think the EU should become a federation now. At least 20 more years, in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

So how are you planing to mange countries who fail to mange there economy? It easy to say reform, but what do you want EU shall do? Give "free" money to countries in crisis? Forced control over their finances?

I don't know exactly because I'm not a politician, but I do know the current state of things isn't as it should be. And no, I don't think either of those two things should be done. I definitely do not support any sort of forced austerity, because that is not how a country gets out of a crisis. It gets out by reducing its taxes and attracting investments again. So this would probably be a good start - some sort of mechanism to stimulate investments in countries that are going through a crisis. This would involve "giving free money" to these countries, but in a very targeted way, similar to how EU research funds are given out.

So small Luxenburg shall have as much influence as big Poland?.

Yes. States must be equal, as bizarre as this may seem given their populations. The reason is very simple - having a say that is disproportionate to their size is almost the only reason why small entities are part of larger ones. The bigger countries get more control of the market, while smaller countries are somewhat compensated by more control of the political arena.

So you want individual countries give up most of its power to the EU parlament? What will hapen if you do not like the decision? Like country X need to take in Y refugees from a common EU refugee pool....

What will happen is what always happens in democratic regions of the world - the losers (disagreers) suck it up. They will whine, but they wont start civil wars. And I very much support refugees being distributed more rationally, even if it's forced. I'm completely dumbfounded that they weren't distributed uniformly.

[Zoranon]

I hope you're aware that almost half (~45%) of all Europeans actively support further integration towards a federation of nation-states, which you can check here (page 154). Mind you, the number that don't know go from 10-30% from country to country. I.e., if there was a referendum for that back then, EU would be a federation right now. You should also keep in mind that this was 2014, when people had worse views of the EU. In fact, that was the all-time low for the EU image. You can cross-check with Eurobarometer from 2017, if you don't believe that. Another thing to note - if you disregard the UK in the result for how many support a federation (in the UK, it was 21%), then you'd get that about 50% of Europeans supported it. Imagine what that number is right now.

Not that I actually think the EU should become a federation now. At least 20 more years, in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't know exactly because I'm not a politician, but I do know the current state of things isn't as it should be. And no, I don't think either of those two things should be done. I definitely do not support any sort of forced austerity, because that is not how a country gets out of a crisis. It gets out by reducing its taxes and attracting investments again. So this would probably be a good start - some sort of mechanism to stimulate investments in countries that are going through a crisis. This would involve "giving free money" to these countries, but in a very targeted way, similar to how EU research funds are given out.



Yes. States must be equal, as bizarre as this may seem given their populations. The reason is very simple - having a say that is disproportionate to their size is almost the only reason why small entities are part of larger ones. The bigger countries get more control of the market, while smaller countries are somewhat compensated by more control of the political arena.



What will happen is what always happens in democratic regions of the world - the losers (disagreers) suck it up. They will whine, but they wont start civil wars. And I very much support refugees being distributed more rationally, even if it's forced. I'm completely dumbfounded that they weren't distributed uniformly.

A survey paid for by the comission shows results favourable to the comission, that's a shocker... Every time EU faced a real test of popularity, aka a referendum, the result was a debacle. Come to think of it, you could get a federal state the EU way, by simply having people vote until they vote the way EU elites want them to

If you think people in countries like mine will just idly sit by while tens of thousands of illegal immigrants are forced upon us, then I have a sea-front property in Czech Republic to sell to you.

[Morgarw]

not really true tbh

- - - Updated - - -

Italy had how many governments since the end of the second world war? What was the average inflation pre-Euro? On the Transparancy International corruption index, Italy (and the Balkans) are closer to Africa than to the rest of europe.

Even the many europeans who like Italy and Italians, sure as hell don't want to live in a 'Giant Italy'.

you should add that Italy was the 5 economy in the world until few years ago. Their healthcare system and life expectancy are among the top too

[Deleted]

I thought this would be a Tennisace thread.

me too, it just felt like something he would say.

[Wikiy]

A survey paid for by the comission shows results favourable to the comission, that's a shocker...

I'm not going to waste my time debating conspiracy theorists.

[Zoranon]

I'm not going to waste my time debating conspiracy theorists.

Thats a cute way to run away, you could have just said so.

But then again, EU federalists generally have no arguments, so I am not surprised.

[Wikiy]

Thats a cute way to run away, you could have just said so.

But then again, EU federalists generally have no arguments, so I am not surprised.

I have arguments, I just can't stand conspiracy theorists, that's all. I'm not going to argue where you're going to assume things and then shift the burden of proof onto me to prove that your conspiracy theory is false. You may think you're not a conspiracy theorist because your theory is relatively down-to-earth, but it's still a conspiracy theory, you're assuming a democratic institution that employs thousands of people is openly making up data. This is no different to a conspiracy theory that Big Pharma have found a cure for cancer and wont share it with the public.

[Zoranon]

I have arguments, I just can't stand conspiracy theorists, that's all. I'm not going to argue where you're going to assume things and then shift the burden of proof onto me to prove that your conspiracy theory is false. You may think you're not a conspiracy theorist because your theory is relatively down-to-earth, but it's still a conspiracy theory, you're assuming a democratic institution that employs thousands of people is openly making up data. This is no different to a conspiracy theory that Big Pharma have found a cure for cancer and wont share it with the public.

If you think polling organisations do not manipulate their datasets, you are so incredibly naive that talking to you any further is a waste of time.