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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire Evaddon's Avatar
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    We won't get the rework we need until next expansion most probably

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It makes sense though; the Ret community is not so divided over Crusade that people quit the spec because of it. The Frost community is VERY divided over BoS, with many people quitting the spec for Unholy even before the spec became bottom tier. Havoc can keep both Chaos Blades and Demonic builds relatively close to each other, Frost deserves the same. I am not sure what WE need though, what would be a good alternative to Crusade (I think a talent that gives 3 charges to AW probably would be it)
    The big thing on our end is there are a ton of rets who refuse to quit because we have waited years for our Ashbringer. It's kinda like a very odd version of Stockholme Syndrome for us. We know its bad, but we can't stop.

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthane View Post
    The big thing on our end is there are a ton of rets who refuse to quit because we have waited years for our Ashbringer. It's kinda like a very odd version of Stockholme Syndrome for us. We know its bad, but we can't stop.
    It's the ties that bind, I think.
    Friends made, fun had, nostalgia as a whole, not being or willing to withdraw completely, past achievements reached and endeavors taken.
    Not to mention this lolworthy carrot on a stick that is Ashbringer and the whole lot of the stupid assfagget shining knight fantasy.
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  4. #44
    High Overlord Temna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthane View Post
    The big thing on our end is there are a ton of rets who refuse to quit because we have waited years for our Ashbringer. It's kinda like a very odd version of Stockholme Syndrome for us. We know its bad, but we can't stop.
    Good stories, as it were

    Also I agree with you Nym, as I did swap to unholy when BoS became a thing (found that unholy was a fair bit of fun but they need to sort out FWs though >>) but I do think long term Crusade should go (and Retribution as well).

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormec View Post
    I assume "our round" is coming up; Feral and Frost have been in a bad place most of this expansion, so they went first. Just the mere fact they addressed, for Frost, all the effort/synergy being pumped into a single ability shows (in addition to their past comments) that they want to break a reliance on Crusade. It's kinda like doing "spec triage;" you attend to the ones in the worst shape and go from there.

    I really like how Ion operates, it's miles better than the last guy's "If you don't like the other talents, don't take them, now get lost" attitude.
    By that logic, Warlocks and Rogues have been in an even worse position because they reworked those before Feral and Frost, lol.

  6. #46
    well as of now frost is receiving a rework so i can now safely say i think we are going to get one soon

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zTrikky View Post
    well as of now frost is receiving a rework so i can now safely say i think we are going to get one soon
    What makes you think so?
    Is there any kind of indication Retribution is next in line?
    Any indication at all? I'll take even wishful thinking as an answer.
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  8. #48
    Retribution rework mid-expansion: Look at our t21 set bonuyses and understand how much time they gonna spend for the specc.
    But if they decide to go down the road of rework the specc is so hard-dp-facialized this expac that they wouldn't be able to handle the rework and would come down with a worse atrocity . The only reason for them to rework it would be to hit something with their nerf bat once again.
    "Are you sexually harassing me right now? Because if you are, I think I’m gonna have to report you. For giving me a serious boner."
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  9. #49
    They could give us Crusade baseline and put something else in its place that fits their 3-5% matra and we'd still be "Ok".

  10. #50
    If they make crusade baseline we are in deep shit. I just want my good old fashioned wings . Crusade can remain a talent for those farm nights where everyone chants logs are love logs are life
    "Are you sexually harassing me right now? Because if you are, I think I’m gonna have to report you. For giving me a serious boner."
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  11. #51
    I actually despise base wings. In earlier expansions where AW gave us HoW (as well as having Zealotry/Guardian of the Ancient kings) to make the gameplay feel special during our burst was another story. But current baseline AW is incredibly boring, nothing changes except the numbers are a bit bigger. How anyone who thinks baseline AW and a base damage increase is the answer to a successful rework is crazy, ret would be the most boring spec since BC times unless major, expansion style changes are made to our entire toolkit.

    The haste that Crusade gives (especially with Bloodlust) is so much less binary. Obviously current Crusade and it's raw power causes us too many problems, but I believe in order for a Ret rework to not be terrible they would need to replace it with something that's actually interesting (doesn't have to be a major 2 minute cooldown either) to switch things up from the playstyle Legion ret has outside of Crusade (which is currently incredibly dull). They could also just remove some of the raw damage portion of it and double down on the haste aspect, with buffs to TV or something similar.
    Last edited by Ohdee; 2017-07-17 at 12:42 AM.

  12. #52
    I actually despise base wings. In earlier expansions where AW gave us HoW (as well as having Zealotry/Guardian of the Ancient kings) to make the gameplay feel special during our burst was another story. But current baseline AW is incredibly boring, nothing changes except the numbers are a bit bigger. How anyone thinks baseline AW and a base damage increase is the answer to a successful rework is crazy to me - ret would be the most boring spec since BC times unless major, expansion style changes are made to our entire toolkit.

    The haste that Crusade gives (especially with Bloodlust) is so much less binary. Obviously current Crusade and it's raw power causes us too many problems, but I believe in order for a Ret rework to not be terrible they would need to replace it with something that's actually interesting (doesn't have to be a major 2 minute cooldown either) to switch things up from the playstyle Legion ret has outside of Crusade (which is currently incredibly dull). They could also just remove some of the raw damage portion of it and double down on the haste aspect, with buffs to TV or something similar.

  13. #53
    I actually despise base wings. In earlier expansions where AW gave us HoW (as well as having Zealotry/Guardian of the Ancient kings) to make the gameplay feel special during our burst was another story. But current baseline AW is incredibly boring, nothing changes except the numbers are a bit bigger. How anyone thinks baseline AW and a base damage increase is the answer to a successful rework is crazy to me - ret would be the most boring spec since BC times unless major changes are made to our toolkit.

    The haste that Crusade gives (especially with Bloodlust) is so much less binary. Obviously current Crusade and it's raw power causes us too many problems, but I believe in order for a Ret rework to not be terrible they would need to replace it with something that's actually interesting (doesn't have to be a major 2 minute cooldown either) to switch things up from the playstyle Legion ret has outside of Crusade (which is currently incredibly dull). They could also just remove some of the raw damage portion of it and double down on the haste aspect, with buffs to TV or something similar.

  14. #54
    High Overlord Temna's Avatar
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    I agree with not baselining Crusade, don't think it worth it. Only move on crusade I think other then removal (which is an expac level amount of work) would be to normalize its duration and retool the Wrath of the Ashbringer trait into something else.

  15. #55
    With T20-4pc, and two non-haste trinkets while at +31.5% haste. Retribution feels absolutely nice to play.

    In regards to Crusade, my expectations are:


    Crusade will now stack to 20. With a Base Damage increase of 10% and gains 1% Haste and Damage per holy power spent.
    Holy Wrath(100) is replaced by Justicar's Vengeance(75)
    Justicar's Vegeance(75) is replaced by Judgment of Light (90)
    Judgment of Light(90) is replaced by Holy Wrath(100)

    Justicar's Vengeance now replaces Templar's Verdict when selected.
    Justicar's Vengeance now costs 3-5 Holy Power, dealing more damage per Holy Power spent.
    With retribution's ability kit being completely reliant on availability of abilities not on cooldown. Sometimes however Retribution Paladins may have too many abilities off cooldown when Holy Power is already pooled. Justicar's Vengeance is now effected by Echo of the Highlord
    Divine Purpose proc chance increased to 22% to bring it in line with the new Crusade and Justicar's Vengeance
    Last edited by Isolyphic; 2017-07-17 at 03:26 AM.
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  16. #56
    Pit Lord Eurytos's Avatar
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    The problem is judgement. And our mastery makes it worse. But the biggest culprit is judgement. They aren't changing that mid expac. I think the best we can hope for is bandaid fixes. Number tuning. But the play style isn't changing mid expac. Which sucks, because thats the biggest problem.

    When I think of game play changes they made for ret, they have gotten it right several times before this. The two biggest play style changes being the way seals and judgment used to work, and then later the addition of holy power. Inquisition was a medium sized change, while not the worst, just didn't work out so they went away from it. This colossus smash-finisher bullshit isn't working, and they gotta either come up with something new, which I'd rather them not, I think there is plenty to pull from in the history of ret, or they pull from ret's history as I think is good enough.

    I think it's obvious they will move away from it. It just sucks right now. And until 8.0 pre-patch comes I'm sure it will continue to suck, with only bandaid fixes and number tuning. And if they don't change ret, then I guess I gotta go back to main tanking to have fun with paladin. Play some other class for my melee fun. I'm so depressed with ret right now, goddamn this sucks.
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  17. #57
    Inquisition and Judgment are basically the same thing. "Stop what you're doing and push this button every x seconds so you can continue doing max damage."

    Except, Inquisition felt worse because you had to dump holy power to do it.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Hulabaloon View Post
    Inquisition and Judgment are basically the same thing. "Stop what you're doing and push this button every x seconds so you can continue doing max damage."

    Except, Inquisition felt worse because you had to dump holy power to do it.
    Not really. I'd take 30 second Inquisition over baby colossus smash. At least I could judge distant targets again without my DPS being raped. And switching targets wouldn't require me to have Judgment up.

  19. #59
    In what world is target swapping a problem ever since Judge Unworthy was made a thing?

  20. #60
    Crusade baseline would be terrible for PvP. While I personally dislike PvP greatly, I don't think it's correct to load the burden onto PvPers.

    Judge Unworthy is a bandaid for what has basically not worked for the entire expansion. Judgment limits your target swapping and AoE capabilities enormously, Judge Unworthy fixed that to a degree. I'd even say that it's basically back to Hand of Light mastery but more tedious.

    I really hope the Judgment debuff mechanic gets scrapped for the next expansion. I've yet to encounter a Ret who likes this playstyle (I know, anectodal etc...)

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