Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,151
    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    No I disagree, I think the changes are amazing, coming from a PvP perspective.

    It means that we can maybe finally get rid of the rediculously badly designed talent that is Bloodtalons in PvP. Bloodtalons forces you to use your utility (PS) to increase damage instead of providing utility (ie doing something skillful, not spamming damage). It is so counter intuitive to the idea of PvP that I'm sure the only reason it became the go-to talent in the PvP spec was because whoever is in charge of Feral PvP has a lot of specs on his hands and Feral was/is far down on his priority list. The rotation with Bloodtalons is so incredibly clunky in PvP that I could go on forever.

    Also, the SR change is good - 24sec SR is just not feasible in PvP, at all. It should be increased to 42 secs like previous expansions and be made usable at 0 combo points for a 12 second buff though.

    Tying less damage into pulling off the incredibly clunky and in-effective PvP rotation and more to just maintaining DoTs properly is great. Snapshotting is a great, but Bloodtalons and Jagged Wounds simply make Feral PvP incredibly clunky - if you get CC'd and PS falls of you're screwed and all you ever do is renew DoTs because you never have 100% uptime so you don't actually have time to do anything intelligent besides just renewing DoTs because they're about to fall off (not that there are many intelligent
    Feral plays left in Legion anyway but yeah).
    (This is about PvP, just in case any PvErs read it)

    So, they've nerfed bleed damage by nerfing BT/JW and buffing overall damage by 33%, that means BT and perhaps even JW aren't worth taking at all.

    That means you'll maybe have to play SR (I hope not) or BrS along with probably EG.

    I actually like EG, it's incredibly useful as a situational talent so putting that in a more "viable" talent row is great, but I've always liked the snapshotting DoT style of feral gameplay. It seems like it's going backwards in development because of these changes that are taking emphasis away from bleed damage.

    If SR is the best talent, do you really want that back as a mechanic?

    I just feel like overall it's going to be a much more braindead class because once you remove thought process from the rotation and not putting it anywhere else (using PS on a root isn't exactly a god tier play) you're just removing thought process overall.
    Last edited by Krassz; 2017-07-08 at 09:46 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post
    I'll quote Ishayu <Frostmane - EU> from the official forums:

    "Pretty great changes and well needed. Bekrynn nicely sums up why. It unlocks many new builds and substantially reduces the punishment for a little it of failure, which was very, very needed.

    I basically had to give up on my Feral because the rotation was just too punishing to perform while raid leading as well (which I was doing). That rotation was just beyond punishing, beyond ridiculously hard to maintain.

    The only reason I was able to even play it at all is I ended up writing a model predictive controller algorithm for simultating ahead and suggest abilities. This is actually the same algorithm that powers the recently released automatic Insulin Pump. Without methods like these, it was unplayable while raid leading. That's just ridiculous.

    Any attempt to deviate from the super punishing spec was met with completely ruined DPS potential. It wasn't just a little bit of punishment, it was really large. The spec basically had no flexibility.

    However, this comes far too late. I've already rerolled, and I don't expect to return to this character, because even though you're fixing the retarded rotation, and good on you for that, this still doesn't feel like a Druid anymore. There's no shapeshifting and no real utility in it, and the survivability is beyond frustrating, especially in PvP.

    However, I'm glad on behalf of my formerly fellow kitties that this finally got looked into. Good move, Blizzard."

    I think a lot of players has the same opinion regarding the lack of utility as he does. How come the most versatile class in the game ends up with one of the most locked specs? We're still the only class that can fill every spot in any team, most hybrid of hybrids. But Feral is now punished dps-wise for using the (nerfed) healing, if done at the wrong time.

    I know all the reasons for pruning abilities, making sure we're not OP when bearcat/catbear, watching our healing output etc - I just don't care. I don't see Blizzard removing immunities from rogues fx. Or utility. Even though immunities have been borderline gamebreaking for over a decade now.

    So Blizzard: Fix our utility! In patch 7.3. Buffing our affinities would be the logical start. Make it so going moonkin mid fight could be a good choice. Or start healing mid fight, as a Feral. Oh, and let us cast Rejuvenation in cat form. That's the least you can do, honestly.
    literally who?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Doogler View Post
    They said they are keeping the current spec as a top option. You are literally losing nothing. What you are complaining about is that people who you consider yourself better than will be able to play the spec reasonably well now.
    He's "losing out" on Savage Roar becoming longer because it won't be "as hard" to keep it up.

    To that I say, I am so sorry sir.

  4. #24
    Looking back, this is about 6 patches and 1000 hotfixes to late..

  5. #25
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,151
    Quote Originally Posted by satori sartori View Post
    literally who?
    some guy that spends more time on the forums than in-game

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz View Post
    (This is about PvP, just in case any PvErs read it)

    So, they've nerfed bleed damage by nerfing BT/JW and buffing overall damage by 33%, that means BT and perhaps even JW aren't worth taking at all.

    That means you'll maybe have to play SR (I hope not) or BrS along with probably EG.

    I actually like EG, it's incredibly useful as a situational talent so putting that in a more "viable" talent row is great, but I've always liked the snapshotting DoT style of feral gameplay. It seems like it's going backwards in development because of these changes that are taking emphasis away from bleed damage.

    If SR is the best talent, do you really want that back as a mechanic?

    I just feel like overall it's going to be a much more braindead class because once you remove thought process from the rotation and not putting it anywhere else (using PS on a root isn't exactly a god tier play) you're just removing thought process overall.
    I think the "new" talent tree in PvP is going to be:

    Incarnation
    Sabertooth
    Moment of Clarity

    Given that I believe those are going to be the go-to talents for any non-rot Feral PvP comp I think it's going to turn out better. Obviously if BT and SR are still the "main go to" options nothing will have been achieved, I absolutely do not hope for it. Personally I think Sabertooth is much more powerful than Brutal Slash in PvP (especially combined with Ferocious Wound). It's just a question of whether 15% SR & 36sec duration is stronger than Sabertooth basically. But I might be wrong, it all comes down to tuning on this one. I hope I'm right and Sabertooth & Incarnation & Moment of Clarity/EG is the way to go in PvP.

    Also regarding the root thing - selecting whether to root or heal (and when to) is much more skillful then robotically healing (regardless if someone needs it) right before ripping/artifact every single time. It's the whole "not everything is about damage" thing.

  7. #27
    Honestly, for me, unless Feral gets a complete overhaul on how's it is done, I won't play the spec. It's just flat out awful.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,151
    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    I think the "new" talent tree in PvP is going to be:

    Incarnation
    Sabertooth
    Moment of Clarity

    Given that I believe those are going to be the go-to talents for any non-rot Feral PvP comp I think it's going to turn out better. Obviously if BT and SR are still the "main go to" options nothing will have been achieved, I absolutely do not hope for it. Personally I think Sabertooth is much more powerful than Brutal Slash in PvP (especially combined with Ferocious Wound). It's just a question of whether 15% SR & 36sec duration is stronger than Sabertooth basically. But I might be wrong, it all comes down to tuning on this one. I hope I'm right and Sabertooth & Incarnation & Moment of Clarity/EG is the way to go in PvP.

    Also regarding the root thing - selecting whether to root or heal (and when to) is much more skillful then robotically healing (regardless if someone needs it) right before ripping/artifact every single time. It's the whole "not everything is about damage" thing.
    I'm unsure about the last talent - but a few other ferals I spoke to (glad-level+ players for reference, one was cassidy) seem to think Savage Roar is going to be the talent of choice for the 90 row. I forgot that JW was moved to the same tier as Incarn so that's definitely a no-brainer. I'm glad though as I never liked JW.

    I honestly thought it was going to be between BrS and Sabertooth as well though, the 33% overall damage buff may mean ferocious bite is doing a lot of damage again due to the fact we're missing out on the JW/BT bleed damage.

    Either way I think there may be more than just one viable option. Hard to tell until the numbers come out on FB/BrS whether they're worth taking or not.
    Last edited by Krassz; 2017-07-09 at 03:02 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz View Post
    I'm unsure about the last talent - but a few other ferals I spoke to (glad-level+ players for reference, one was cassidy) seem to think Savage Roar is going to be the talent of choice for the 90 row. I forgot that JW was moved to the same tier as Incarn so that's definitely a no-brainer. I'm glad though as I never liked JW.

    I honestly thought it was going to be between BrS and Sabertooth as well though, the 33% overall damage buff may mean ferocious bite is doing a lot of damage again due to the fact we're missing out on the JW/BT bleed damage.

    Either way I think there may be more than just one viable option. Hard to tell until the numbers come out on FB/BrS whether they're worth taking or not.
    Yeah pretty much everything is still up in the air as we need to run PvP simulations and check how things do work out. But it's highly likely there will be several talents very close to eachother in performance such that you can pick "whatever works best for your playstyle, your specific comp and what you're currently facing".

    They said they're buffing Moment of Clarity to proc more often, and BT is being nerfed by 50% - so I guess we'll see. I wonder how much better BT is than the other options in a PvP setting as of today.

    And regarding SR, I think another important thing to remember is games on average are actually fairly short and it's fairly rare for games to actually last for say even 4 minutes (of course it happens but it's not that many games). Basically what I'm getting at is that the shorter a game is the less "value" SR gives. If the game is determined within the first 3-4 CC chains maybe it would've been better to just go for BrS/Sabertooth to make the opener more powerful and thereby potentially changing the outcome of the game (with SR you'd have to spend time/cps to get the buff up in the opener).

    I really must say though that I hate both BrS and Sabertooth (BrS is AoE built into normal/nuke damage rotation which is bad design & ST is almost a complete removal of Rip from the rotation, which I dislike). If they'd just make SR 42 seconds and make it usable with 0 combo points (like the MoP glyph) I think I'd like SR a lot more than both of the other options. But only if BT is not the must-have talent in the last row.
    Last edited by RelaZ; 2017-07-09 at 04:54 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    That's entirely incorrect. The difference between perfect gear and worst gear really isn't that big, simply because agility is better than all our secondaries.
    That's from a simulation/paper perspective on average DPS potential (which has a huge variance anyways). In practice/execution, your secondary stat allocation makes a very big difference in quality of life, how you get to that damage output, and how much your damage can vary each encounter. Running SR/JW/BT with heavy haste/versa is a timers nightmare, because combo point generation is terrible when you're sitting between 15-18% crit. I can certainly hit my DPS potential, but it's not even remotely fun having to pray for crits/OoC procs for a smooth rotation because the timers collide if you don't on even a single target tunneling fight (add movement/mechanics/CC, it's worse). Getting SotA recently made life incredibly better, but having to rely on a legendary to make a spec function well because of my gear drop luck isn't what I'd define as fun. I'd kill for the 34% crit that you have on your gear.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    That's from a simulation/paper perspective on average DPS potential (which has a huge variance anyways). In practice/execution, your secondary stat allocation makes a very big difference in quality of life, how you get to that damage output, and how much your damage can vary each encounter. Running SR/JW/BT with heavy haste/versa is a timers nightmare, because combo point generation is terrible when you're sitting between 15-18% crit. I can certainly hit my DPS potential, but it's not even remotely fun having to pray for crits/OoC procs for a smooth rotation because the timers collide if you don't on even a single target tunneling fight (add movement/mechanics/CC, it's worse). Getting SotA recently made life incredibly better, but having to rely on a legendary to make a spec function well because of my gear drop luck isn't what I'd define as fun. I'd kill for the 34% crit that you have on your gear.
    First of all in current gear, there's no way you should be that low on any stat(also you have 20% crit by default). And regardless of that, you can literally perform the Feral "rotation"(using SR/JW/BT) with just an artifact with 34 points equipped.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2017-07-09 at 07:51 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It was only AA damage for one expansion, before and after that expansion(Cata?) it was all damage. And SR is necessary in order to have decisionmaking regarding CP spending, although the current short duration ruins that a bit.
    I'm perfectly content with having a difficult rotation and needing the additional abilities for decision making. What I dislike is the "all damage" portion. I feel that Druids still need a way to spend combo points while ranged, to proc other abilities, I just don't believe that a complete damage buff is the best way to do it. Hell, they could even take and make Moonfire a spender in its place for all I care.

    The SR damage gate just feels as though it isn't so much buffing our damage, but returning our damage to what it SHOULD be.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    Eh, I disagree
    ...
    snip
    ...
    Upon further consideration, you're right. This change won't / will barely affect feral difficulty. I guess what I really dislike about it is that it makes dot/buff management a less major part of the spec. With Savage Roar and Jagged Wounds durations increased, as well as the Rip increasing 4 piece set bonus we'll be getting, keeping up dots/buffs will be trivial. Buff/debuff management being trivial means I may as well be playing a Rogue or Warlock.

  14. #34
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Finland (North of Darnassus)
    Posts
    846
    Cool, another circle closes. Next expansions they either remove it, or make it short again, aaaand round and round it goes again..
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  15. #35
    Assuming this changes will come through and I would wanna make a build with as much frontload damage as possible, which stats would be the best? Crit >vers or?

  16. #36
    So is the overall consensus is that DPS will be up? This will make the artifact challenge easier correct?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    I think the "new" talent tree in PvP is going to be:

    Incarnation
    Sabertooth
    Moment of Clarity

    Given that I believe those are going to be the go-to talents for any non-rot Feral PvP comp I think it's going to turn out better. Obviously if BT and SR are still the "main go to" options nothing will have been achieved, I absolutely do not hope for it. Personally I think Sabertooth is much more powerful than Brutal Slash in PvP (especially combined with Ferocious Wound). It's just a question of whether 15% SR & 36sec duration is stronger than Sabertooth basically. But I might be wrong, it all comes down to tuning on this one. I hope I'm right and Sabertooth & Incarnation & Moment of Clarity/EG is the way to go in PvP.

    Also regarding the root thing - selecting whether to root or heal (and when to) is much more skillful then robotically healing (regardless if someone needs it) right before ripping/artifact every single time. It's the whole "not everything is about damage" thing.
    Not sure if FB will be powerful enough for this build to make the cut, using this build you will be able to basically spam it quite a lot. Right now I think it is fair to expect a 50 energy + 5 combo FB to crit for 500k (without TF) in pvp, so it will be hitting for around 800k in the next patch... not bad considering you will be hitting a target with 25% less HP.

    That being said, Brutal Slash lines quite well with TF and it will receive a 33% buff, so it is possible that a burst based feral will use it instead (as it is not hard to keep rip and Ferocious Wound if you have MoC).

    I can also see a rot comp using EG to spread bleeds + ferocious wound in 2~3 targets, that would be insanely powerful.

    All in all I am VERY happy that I will no longer be required to use that stupid bloody talons talent and kill my already bad utility. I wish they would also re-visit feral CC since they are at it, but I think they hardly will.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    Not sure if FB will be powerful enough for this build to make the cut, using this build you will be able to basically spam it quite a lot. Right now I think it is fair to expect a 50 energy + 5 combo FB to crit for 500k (without TF) in pvp, so it will be hitting for around 800k in the next patch... not bad considering you will be hitting a target with 25% less HP.

    That being said, Brutal Slash lines quite well with TF and it will receive a 33% buff, so it is possible that a burst based feral will use it instead (as it is not hard to keep rip and Ferocious Wound if you have MoC).

    I can also see a rot comp using EG to spread bleeds + ferocious wound in 2~3 targets, that would be insanely powerful.

    All in all I am VERY happy that I will no longer be required to use that stupid bloody talons talent and kill my already bad utility. I wish they would also re-visit feral CC since they are at it, but I think they hardly will.
    Yeah we'll see

    And I too am very happy if BT turns out to not be mandatory.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    Yeah we'll see

    And I too am very happy if BT turns out to not be mandatory.
    I just tested the PTR (My artifact is 3/4 of the old talents and I don't have the buff to TF or the 30% damage buff during the artifact bleed and I have 883 ilvl there) and I got 1.2kk FB (with TF buff) on the pvp dummy with the build you suggested, it is not as constant as I expected because TF consumes a lot of energy.

    I also think it may be a good idea to get EG instead of MoC, So you can macro TF + FB, then EG + FB... that is 2.4kk damage in 2 globals (30% more with the artifact trait debuff and a lot more if you align it all with legionfall proc)... so yeah, nerf incoming I guess.

    Final note is that my brutal slash crits a bit over 800k (with TF).

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    First of all in current gear, there's no way you should be that low on any stat(also you have 20% crit by default). And regardless of that, you can literally perform the Feral "rotation"(using SR/JW/BT) with just an artifact with 34 points equipped.
    Feral gets 10% crit default, weapon gives roughly 2% more crit in the 920-930ilvl range. It's very possible to have gear with no crit on it, and a piece or two lands you in the 15-18% crit range even above 920+ gear levels. Never said the rotation isn't possible with sub-optimal crit, it just plays terribly with low crit since maintaining Rip/SR requires a lot of crit/omen procs or the rotation becomes a nightmare with the current durations even on a target dummy. However, I doubt you tried playing Feral with just your weapon and no gear, it's pretty clear shortly after Berserk/TF uses that maintaining 100% uptime on Rip and SR comes near impossible with JW (Sabertooth works still, but you aren't going to be getting 5-pt FB's very often). Again, I maintain that these changes will be great for the crowd that doesn't have well itemized gear for Feral, no matter their ilvl.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •