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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantis82 View Post
    It seems the conclusion here is that BM is better in pretty much everything except dps checks, and wouldnt u say that for TOS mythic progression thats ok since there are no hard dps checks?
    Avatar would be considered a hard DPS check.

    Method took 3 BM and 0 MM.

    So even then...

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Skul View Post
    Avatar would be considered a hard DPS check.

    Method took 3 BM and 0 MM.

    So even then...
    One guild on one successful run does not prove anything. So many factors involved, including the fact that their BM specs were probably their main spec last patch and therefore at a higher level. Let's give it a month or so and then come back to this topic. Let's get 1,000 or more parses for each mythic boss and then we can discuss intelligently. Initially, on the high movement fights like FA, BM will have an advantage, but as people learn the fights and when to move MM becomes just as reliable. For those where sufficient data exists, the numbers are clear, MM tops every fight so far. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13. On at least 3 bosses, over the last two weeks of Mythic, BM has been dead last in dps for all dps classes.
    Last edited by Hunterforlife; 2017-07-15 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #43
    If its dead last now during progression.. (bms thing apparently) the gap is just gonna widen and widen over the next few weeks.. BM needs buffs now.. need tier 19 and overall dmg buff.

    Also LOL @ the 3 hunters for first kill Avatar meaning anything.. boss has already been nerfed and will most likely get nerfed again once kj goes sown

  4. #44
    I think method played BM on avatar mostly because they needed the legendary bracers that gives lower CD on aspect of the turtle, and possibly that BMs CDs overall lines up better for breaking the shield on maiden.

  5. #45
    Mechagnome Zantera's Avatar
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    Yeah I stuck with BM even despite all the "MM is OP everyone go MM" talk at the start of Tomb. I dunno, personally I don't really care about pushing my own DPS that much, I care about how much I enjoy the spec and if I can play BM good I'll take that over playing MM because of the freedom. Being able to run around while still do rotation is just great and I feel like I can contribute more with mechanics and stuff.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    I think method played BM on avatar mostly because they needed the legendary bracers that gives lower CD on aspect of the turtle, and possibly that BMs CDs overall lines up better for breaking the shield on maiden.
    All Three Method hunters were spec'd Marksmanship for their world first kill of Kil'jaeden and on their second and third kills of FA they all switched to MM from BM. I guess the change is permanent now for all fights.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ThanksForTheMemories View Post
    Play MM on FA and KJ mythic and let me know when you change your mind.



    Lmao comparing Goroth to Avatar lmao
    I'm sorry, what were you saying? All three Method hunters are now running MM on FA and KJ. Case closed.
    Last edited by Hunterforlife; 2017-07-16 at 06:37 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanis-Hellscream View Post


    I'm sorry, what were you saying? All three Method hunters are now running MM on FA and KJ. Case closed.
    They did not paly MM on Avatar progress (which is what matters) and you don't know what they played on KJ, or why they played it, until the video.

    Not that I'm saying they absolutely didn't play MM on KJ, before you attack me in that way if we find out they did.

  8. #48
    Stood in the Fire Shadoxious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThanksForTheMemories View Post
    They did not paly MM on Avatar progress (which is what matters) and you don't know what they played on KJ, or why they played it, until the video.

    Not that I'm saying they absolutely didn't play MM on KJ, before you attack me in that way if we find out they did.
    Wowprogress shows what they played

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Shootywooty View Post
    Wowprogress shows what they played
    WoWProgress shows what you log out with not what you kill a boss with.

  10. #50
    Pretty sure they were MM.. why hide it when you already killed the final boss?

    Anyway BM was only relevant due to call of the wild legendary reducing aspect of the turtle in the first Avatar kill... so basically the legendary was chosen (for soaking) not the spec. Now people have more gear + some nerfs to avatar MM is being used instead

    BM is not in a good state atm.. and as we dont benefit much from wpdps we are gonna fall even more behind

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ThanksForTheMemories View Post
    They did not paly MM on Avatar progress (which is what matters) and you don't know what they played on KJ, or why they played it, until the video.

    Not that I'm saying they absolutely didn't play MM on KJ, before you attack me in that way if we find out they did.
    Wrong, check the link to the post, it also lists their raid composition and shows 3 MM hunters. Just click on "View Raid Setup" it's all right there. I would not make the claim without the proof. Also, your rationale on FA is pathetic. Only the first kill matters, really? Stop pulling stuff out of your ear and just admit that they have switched to MM because it's the better spec. Just be honest with yourself.
    Last edited by Hunterforlife; 2017-07-17 at 12:37 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanis-Hellscream View Post
    Wrong, check the link to the video, it also lists their raid composition and shows 3 MM hunters. Just click on "View Raid Setup" it's all right there. I would not make the claim without the proof. Also, your rationale on FA is pathetic. Only the first kill matters, really? Stop pulling stuff out of your ear and just admit that they have switched to MM because it's the better spec. Just be honest with yourself.
    What video you even on about

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ThanksForTheMemories View Post
    WoWProgress shows what you log out with not what you kill a boss with.
    Pull your head out, you're only arguing with yourself at this point. Everyone else knows the truth, so just stop it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ThanksForTheMemories View Post
    What video you even on about
    Post, fixed it. Now just stop being silly and swallow that pill.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanis-Hellscream View Post
    Pull your head out, you're only arguing with yourself at this point. Everyone else knows the truth, so just stop it.
    Yes, the truth is, Wow Progress shows what you log out and update your page with following a kill. I bet you got fooled into thinking Serenity 4 healed WF Augur too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanis-Hellscream View Post
    Post, fixed it. Now just stop being silly and swallow that pill.
    What pill? I still don't know what your post means. I literally have zero idea what you want me to look at. You haven't linked to anything.

    No need to get stroppy with me. Again, I'm not saying they played BM on KJ or they played MM on KJ, just that there is, at this moment, no evidence either way.

    Only the first kill matters, really? Stop pulling stuff out of your ear and just admit that they have switched to MM because it's the better spec. Just be honest with yourself.
    Yes, first kill is all that matters to top raiders. When you are amongst the first guilds in the world to reach a boss and your whole raid is under geared you have to make certain talent, spec and gear choices that don't necessarily give the best sim output. MM sims the best on single target, yet BM was flat out better on Fallen Avatar progression because 1. you lose nothing by moving, 2. you lose nothing by switching targets 8 times in the first 6 minutes and 3. MMs gains a lot of damage sub 20% but in our strat we can't even guarantee you're alive at that point (immune a mark and get a second, gg your dead).
    Last edited by durrtygoodz; 2017-07-17 at 01:00 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by ThanksForTheMemories View Post
    Yes, the truth is, Wow Progress shows what you log out and update your page with following a kill. I bet you got fooled into thinking Serenity 4 healed WF Augur too.



    What pill? I still don't know what your post means. I literally have zero idea what you want me to look at. You haven't linked to anything.

    No need to get stroppy with me. Again, I'm not saying they played BM on KJ or they played MM on KJ, just that there is, at this moment, no evidence either way.



    Yes, first kill is all that matters to top raiders. When you are amongst the first guilds in the world to reach a boss and your whole raid is under geared you have to make certain talent, spec and gear choices that don't necessarily give the best sim output. MM sims the best on single target, yet BM was flat out better on Fallen Avatar progression because 1. you lose nothing by moving, 2. you lose nothing by switching targets 8 times in the first 6 minutes and 3. MMs gains a lot of damage sub 20% but in our strat we can't even guarantee you're alive at that point (immune a mark and get a second, gg your dead).
    Yup, you're right. They all three played BM but switched to MM before logging out. Yeah, that's it, right. Please, get a grip.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanis-Hellscream View Post
    Yup, you're right. They all three played BM but switched to MM before logging out. Yeah, that's it, right. Please, get a grip.
    I genuinely laughed out loud. Thanks, I needed that today.

    People log out after boss kills in different gear, spec and talents All. The. Time. It's ALWAYS been this way. I remember back when I started players it was pretty common for Paragon to actually log out without any gear on at all when they were progression a boss.

  17. #57
    I play BM becuz I like it. So yep, still playing BM

  18. #58
    Scarab Lord Myz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shootywooty View Post
    Wowprogress shows what they played
    No, WoWprogress has been notoriously inaccurate when it comes to spec display for boss kills.

    They did play MM though and BM is not a horrible bottom feeder spec, as evidenced by its high usage rate on progression bosses. Over the last 2 weeks BM was used 1.54 times more often than MM on Mythic logged kills. Last week this was 1.56 times more often. Yesterday this was 1.95 times more often.

    MM scales better and parses higher, that's a given and not something that needs to be discussed. However, due to the BM mobility it's superior to learn an encounter during progression. Once you got it down, you can start playing around the movement penalties that the MM spec gives you and help your guild with faster kill times. But farm content is not relevant content.

    No decent guild will bench you as long as you are playing your BM spec right (and not at the 60th percentile).

    Looking at the latest Mythic Avatar kills by top 20 guilds (all of them in a scope of 3 days):

    Nova: 3/3
    Future: 0/2
    Easy: 2/2
    Pieces: 1/2
    FSY: 2/3
    Aversion: 2/3
    AFK R: 1/2

    That's 11/17 Hunters playing BM or 65%. 0% SV.

    Looking further down at the 10 latest Maiden kills (world rank 66-56):
    Nurfed: 1/2
    Halcyon: 0/1
    Aggressive Authority: 1/3 (1SV)
    Innominatum: 1/3
    Волны Гасят Ветер: 2/2
    Банхаммер: 2/2
    Wiping As Intended: 1/2
    Northwind: 2/2
    Hope n Despair: 1/1
    Group Therapy: 0/2

    11/20, 55%. 40% MM and 5% SV.

    10 most recent Mistress first-time-kills (97-87):
    Might: 0/1
    Raiding Rainbows: 1/2
    Sense: 2/2
    Jade Falcons: 2/2
    The Next Step: 1/1
    macht DRUCK: 1/2
    Security: 1/1
    Фэйбл: 1/1
    Bird is the Word: 1/1
    Thats Nice: 0/2

    10/15, or 67%.

    BM is simply an excellent progression spec and will quickly fall behind on farm content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanis-Hellscream View Post
    Yup, you're right. They all three played BM but switched to MM before logging out. Yeah, that's it, right. Please, get a grip.
    Just to be clear: this is you, correct? https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...llscream/tanis

    It would benefit discussions if people who make black & white statements on spec performance in a Mythic environment, and who won't listen to any other argument, actually played Heroic content, let alone Mythic progression.

    Even if they do not currently raid anymore it would be good if they at least had 1 achievement related progress raiding credential.
    Last edited by Myz; 2017-07-17 at 09:05 AM.

  19. #59
    You guys are arguing about the most nonsensical bullshit. "OMG Method played BM on Avatar progress" "but omg, they did KJ as MM, wowprogress says so".

    None of you are in Method. Who the fuck cares except Method.

    So anyway, it's true, MM has the higher DPS potential on most fights. It's mathematically indisputable.

    Playing BM isn't going to stop you from killing any boss unless you're racing for World #1, which means something to probably about 3 guilds in the world. Maybe.

    By the time 99% of us get to Avatar any BM hunter who's playing properly would be able to put out as much damage as any Method hunter did on their first kill, so that argument is moot either way. And even moreso for KJ from what I've seen of that fight on mythic, because you sure as shit are not going to kill him in the same lockout as your first kill on Avatar.

    BM is not going to shine on meters this tier, really ever. We have one strength and that's boss damage. The cleave is to short and too spread, for the most part, for us to ever do well on that and we've been behind MM on that this whole xpac, probably not going to change. But we can still outshine MM on boss damage on the fights that do have cleave if we play to our strenths. I've done this regularly on fights like mythic host and mistress, and not against shit MM hunters. I was in on our first host kill (arguably our worst one this tier) and I'll almost certainly be in our Mistress kill because if anything we're wiping too often to adds dying too quickly of which I'm just ignoring and coming in around 5th overall on boss damage (which is what REALLY counts on that fight anyway).

    So, continue touting MM ranking on warcraftlogs, and sims, and whatever else you want to pull up. Sure, BM is mathematically behind, it's true. And it's a poor job by Blizzard and worth us BM hunters being salty about as people like me and many others pointed out their shitty job in balancing BM for 7.2.5. But the truth is, we will get by whether Blizzard continues to ignore us or not.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Myz View Post
    No, WoWprogress has been notoriously inaccurate when it comes to spec display for boss kills.

    They did play MM though and BM is not a horrible bottom feeder spec, as evidenced by its high usage rate on progression bosses. Over the last 2 weeks BM was used 1.54 times more often than MM on Mythic logged kills. Last week this was 1.56 times more often. Yesterday this was 1.95 times more often.

    MM scales better and parses higher, that's a given and not something that needs to be discussed. However, due to the BM mobility it's superior to learn an encounter during progression. Once you got it down, you can start playing around the movement penalties that the MM spec gives you and help your guild with faster kill times. But farm content is not relevant content.

    No decent guild will bench you as long as you are playing your BM spec right (and not at the 60th percentile).

    Looking at the latest Mythic Avatar kills by top 20 guilds (all of them in a scope of 3 days):

    Nova: 3/3
    Future: 0/2
    Easy: 2/2
    Pieces: 1/2
    FSY: 2/3
    Aversion: 2/3
    AFK R: 1/2

    That's 11/17 Hunters playing BM or 65%. 0% SV.

    Looking further down at the 10 latest Maiden kills (world rank 66-56):
    Nurfed: 1/2
    Halcyon: 0/1
    Aggressive Authority: 1/3 (1SV)
    Innominatum: 1/3
    Волны Гасят Ветер: 2/2
    Банхаммер: 2/2
    Wiping As Intended: 1/2
    Northwind: 2/2
    Hope n Despair: 1/1
    Group Therapy: 0/2

    11/20, 55%. 40% MM and 5% SV.

    10 most recent Mistress first-time-kills (97-87):
    Might: 0/1
    Raiding Rainbows: 1/2
    Sense: 2/2
    Jade Falcons: 2/2
    The Next Step: 1/1
    macht DRUCK: 1/2
    Security: 1/1
    Фэйбл: 1/1
    Bird is the Word: 1/1
    Thats Nice: 0/2

    10/15, or 67%.

    BM is simply an excellent progression spec and will quickly fall behind on farm content.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Just to be clear: this is you, correct? https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...llscream/tanis

    It would benefit discussions if people who make black & white statements on spec performance in a Mythic environment, and who won't listen to any other argument, actually played Heroic content, let alone Mythic progression.

    Even if they do not currently raid anymore it would be good if they at least had 1 achievement related progress raiding credential.
    Nice post Myz, you back up your statements with facts. You did well until the very end, when you tried to make this a personal issue. I'm sure you're aware that you don't have to have cancer to find a cure for it. Most sports commentators don't actually play the games they cover. The guys setting the odds in Vegas are not athletes. I don't need to be a progession raider to understand the mechanics and logs. It's just math. I have been playing since day one of retail release and unfortunately don't have time for serious raiding anymore, but I have seen this happen over and over. As Mavick said, BM hunters are salty because they've invested a lot of time and effort into a spec and now it's underperformaing. And changing specs is now a much bigger pain in the rear than it used to be. I get it. And I totally agree, it makes perfect sense to run BM as you learn a fight and switch to MM when you want to max your dps. So I think we agree. However, I predict that as the next wave of progression raiders learn the fight by seeing videos of others doing it, they will just run the spec with the higher dps. So keep an eye on the numbers, I think they will start to shift over time even for first time kills.

    As you predicted, the Mythic logs for BM are getting worse, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13. Frost DKs are getting a buff next patch, hope they also address BM.

    Also, if you guys are active progression raiders, please link your character accounts. I love keeping up with what the "good" players are doing.
    Last edited by Hunterforlife; 2017-07-17 at 11:10 AM.

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