1. #1

    Lightbulb Hyper's Unholy Dk Guide - Advanced

    Hey, I hope this guide helps a few people out. After appearing on the Finalboss show, I decided to get a little more involved in making more advanced guides. This is hopefully my first of many, so any feedback is appreciated. I tried answering a lot of the questions I see on the forums and discord. If you wonder why I didn't go into basic info, it's because that can still be found on my basic guide. If any of the info in this is wrong please check pinned comments for corrections, and if you don't see anything there then please let me know. Also, if you have any extra knowledge, please share it in the comment section.

    Cheers!


  2. #2
    My only thing is that you dont talk about CoF at all but assume lining up DA with Apoc. I would have had a section in the video talking about the trinket and what it does for the spec. Then explain how you would play with and without it.

  3. #3
    Thanks for this video !! Just boosted a DK and so far, I love this class

  4. #4
    What are your thoughts on Blighted Rune Weapon? If you pop it pre pull, then cast 1-2 FS you most likely caped wounds allowing you to apoc > army > da > dt. You can also use it once more usually before DA comes back off cd (without CoF) so you can line it up again for a quick apoc into da.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisongaz View Post
    My only thing is that you dont talk about CoF at all but assume lining up DA with Apoc. I would have had a section in the video talking about the trinket and what it does for the spec. Then explain how you would play with and without it.
    Iirc it isn't exactly BiS anyway, so once we've spend some more time there people will gravitate away from it and more towards the 2 trinkets in ToS.

    Btw, does someone have the current unholy trinket rankings? Can't find the raw data /table for the live of me.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Dr Punx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Btw, does someone have the current unholy trinket rankings? Can't find the raw data /table for the live of me.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1479337307

  7. #7
    Ah thanks alot, exactly what I was looking for.
    Though I gotta wonder if convergence is really that bad or if they didn't evaluate the effect well enough.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2017-07-14 at 12:23 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Ah thanks alot, exactly what I was looking for.
    Though I gotta wonder if convergence is really that bad or if they didn't evaluate the effect well enough.
    it seems a little strange. With leg shoulders you can pop apo DA and UT every 1:30. with 4p T20 you get your army ervery second rotation. in this combination CoF should be the second behind Specter. Without shoulders cof isn't really needed IMO.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Dr Punx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Ah thanks alot, exactly what I was looking for.
    Though I gotta wonder if convergence is really that bad or if they didn't evaluate the effect well enough.
    CoF is used as baseline for all sims. That's why it's not in the list. It's pretty much BiS on both specs

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Punx View Post
    CoF is used as baseline for all sims. That's why it's not in the list. It's pretty much BiS on both specs
    But it is in the list, just so far down.. supposedly a 880 mastery chain beats a 910 CoF.

    Edit:
    Nvm the table reads: Unholy_SR, that's probably not as applicable to running a DA built.

    Edit: And in regards to the openings in the guide video, in option 3, why would you cast chains 1 GCD before apoc. 2pt20 is not that hard to get and you should deal 15% more dmg once you've called your ghouls with apoc.
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2017-07-14 at 12:45 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Uglytoes View Post
    What are your thoughts on Blighted Rune Weapon? If you pop it pre pull, then cast 1-2 FS you most likely caped wounds allowing you to apoc > army > da > dt. You can also use it once more usually before DA comes back off cd (without CoF) so you can line it up again for a quick apoc into da.
    BRW is nice, but it adds another CD to an already busy spec. It takes the rng out of the opener, but this is how I look at it: you have 2 talents that are basically the same amount of dps increase. One of them is passive, the other is active. I will always choose the one I can't really mess up lol, so that's why I, and most people prefer PP over BRW. That being said, if you are good at managing it, it can be a good talent choice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    But it is in the list, just so far down.. supposedly a 880 mastery chain beats a 910 CoF.

    Edit:
    Nvm the table reads: Unholy_SR, that's probably not as applicable to running a DA built.

    Edit: And in regards to the openings in the guide video, in option 3, why would you cast chains 1 GCD before apoc. 2pt20 is not that hard to get and you should deal 15% more dmg once you've called your ghouls with apoc.
    Yeah, I made that correction in the comment section. No idea why I said you should cast chains before apoc, that is clearly wrong. I guess I overlooked it when writing the script, and just kinda read it without thinking about what I said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Poisongaz View Post
    My only thing is that you dont talk about CoF at all but assume lining up DA with Apoc. I would have had a section in the video talking about the trinket and what it does for the spec. Then explain how you would play with and without it.
    There are a few things I didn't talk about that I might make another video for. If I talked about all the things I wanted, this would've been a much much longer video, and most people don't have the time to sit down and watch 40 minutes of a nerd talk about their class :P

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord hellhamster's Avatar
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    Very good and informative video, especially for a frost dk who hasn't played unholy since Trial of the Crusader.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Punx View Post
    CoF is used as baseline for all sims. That's why it's not in the list. It's pretty much BiS on both specs
    No it's not. The default profile does not use it (for Tomb) and nor do trinket sims like that use two trinkets, otherwise it wouldn't have CoF on it as a trinket listing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper27 View Post
    BRW is nice, but it adds another CD to an already busy spec. It takes the rng out of the opener, but this is how I look at it: you have 2 talents that are basically the same amount of dps increase. One of them is passive, the other is active. I will always choose the one I can't really mess up lol, so that's why I, and most people prefer PP over BRW. That being said, if you are good at managing it, it can be a good talent choice.
    That's saying a lot to say most people prefer PP, as logs reflect otherwise and talking to actually informed DK's most do choose BRW. While the dps difference is negligible, both have their ups and downs.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    That's saying a lot to say most people prefer PP, as logs reflect otherwise and talking to actually informed DK's most do choose BRW. While the dps difference is negligible, both have their ups and downs.
    Maxweii, I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your work, but I'm not understanding why you said "informed DK's most do choose BRW". According to the Mythic Logs provided at WarcraftLogs, sorted by All Bosses -> Mythic -> Unholy DK's, there are only 3 instances where a DK in the Top 10 DPS on any boss, actually took BRW:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ht&spec=Unholy
    • Once on Harjatan (Rank 1 parse)
    • Once on Mistress Sassz'ine (Rank 4 parse)
    • Once on Sisters of the Moon (Rank 8 parse).

    So clearly, as you said, the talent is very viable, but I don't see any sort of majority of DK's taking BRW, as you suggested (I am paraphrasing a bit). Furthermore, if we peek into the logs of just Mythic Goroth, we find out that BRW is only taken 5 times out of the first 100 parses:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...holy&boss=2032

    Now, I will say that I haven't gone through all of the those pages of logs (on Mythic Goroth or any of the other bosses, but I'm willing to venture a strong bet here that it is mostly the same) to actually check at what percentage of players haven taken BRW over PP on any given fight, but to me, it seems that MOST players prefer to use PP over BRW. Actually, I just checked, and I only saw 22 DKs taking BRW in the Top 400 logs on Mythic Goroth, or a 5.5% usage rate.

    I don't want to have an argument over the talents, as I respect your work very much, but it looks to me the opposite of what you said, and more in line with what Hyper said earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper27 View Post
    BRW is nice, but it adds another CD to an already busy spec. It takes the rng out of the opener, but this is how I look at it: you have 2 talents that are basically the same amount of dps increase. One of them is passive, the other is active. I will always choose the one I can't really mess up lol, so that's why I, and most people prefer PP over BRW. That being said, if you are good at managing it, it can be a good talent choice.
    What am I missing here?

    Cheers
    Last edited by eXtOphius; 2017-07-17 at 11:57 PM. Reason: Checked some more Logs

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by eXtOphius View Post
    Maxweii, I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your work, but I'm not understanding why you said "informed DK's most do choose BRW". According to the Mythic Logs provided at WarcraftLogs, sorted by All Bosses -> Mythic -> Unholy DK's, there are only 3 instances where a DK in the Top 10 DPS on any boss, actually took BRW:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ht&spec=Unholy
    • Once on Harjatan (Rank 1 parse)
    • Once on Mistress Sassz'ine (Rank 4 parse)
    • Once on Sisters of the Moon (Rank 8 parse).

    So clearly, as you said, the talent is very viable, but I don't see any sort of majority of DK's taking BRW, as you suggested (I am paraphrasing a bit). Furthermore, if we peek into the logs of just Mythic Goroth, we find out that BRW is only taken 5 times out of the first 100 parses:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...holy&boss=2032

    Now, I will say that I haven't gone through all of the those pages of logs (on Mythic Goroth or any of the other bosses, but I'm willing to venture a strong bet here that it is mostly the same) to actually check at what percentage of players haven taken BRW over PP on any given fight, but to me, it seems that MOST players prefer to use PP over BRW. Actually, I just checked, and I only saw 22 DKs taking BRW in the Top 400 logs on Mythic Goroth, or a 5.5% usage rate.

    I don't want to have an argument over the talents, as I respect your work very much, but it looks to me the opposite of what you said, and more in line with what Hyper said earlier:



    What am I missing here?

    Cheers
    Progression logs are different than when stuff is on farm, and people tend to take the easier route on progression. Even if it's off the GCD, very easy to use, as BRW is, people take things that are "easier" so they can handle mechanics of an unfamiliar fight better. Nighthold was an example of this as well, early logs using PP, and then later on BRW. Same thing will likely happen especially since once people know mechanics they can worry about "my rotation feels weird".

    Also, fight breakdowns matter. Something like DI or Harj, you're likely able to take Infected Claw which shoots up PP st value, on a fight like KJ why would you take BRW when something to hit is not even there a lot of the time?
    For some fights it will return to what was seen in NH likely, otherwise, PP is passive and brainless compared to BRW.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper27 View Post
    Hey, I hope this guide helps a few people out. After appearing on the Finalboss show, I decided to get a little more involved in making more advanced guides. This is hopefully my first of many, so any feedback is appreciated. I tried answering a lot of the questions I see on the forums and discord. If you wonder why I didn't go into basic info, it's because that can still be found on my basic guide. If any of the info in this is wrong please check pinned comments for corrections, and if you don't see anything there then please let me know. Also, if you have any extra knowledge, please share it in the comment section.

    Cheers!

    Nice guide, one of the most comprehensive and accurate guild out there. Beats everything else. Cheers +1

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