Thread: Frost 7.3

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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by meumaxu View Post
    ofc NOT, frost is still garbage, we gonna need AT LEAST 30% buff to be competitive with UH
    Hyperbole and exaggerations like this are not helpful.

    A 30% buff would make frost the strongest spec in the game by a considerable margin.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoeth View Post
    Hyperbole and exaggerations like this are not helpful.

    A 30% buff would make frost the strongest spec in the game by a considerable margin.
    yeah... a 20% would make us top 3 spec atm

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

  3. #243
    The analogies given to Blizzard class design in this thread are absolutely on POINT.

    I don't know any game developers in real life, so I have no idea how they think about things. All I have to go off is what I see from what we get in WoW. They're so worried about getting to the root cause of the issue that they miss the easy fixes in search of a long-term, permanent fix. A lot of times, the long-term solution isn't so long term nor is it the best solution.

    Their root cause approach would be fine if they were able to attach bandaids that fixed things (I mean really fixed things) at the same time they searched for a long term solution to the problems they create themselves.

    A lot of times, I feel they identify the root problem wrong, which lead us to the funny analogies noted above on their problem solving. They solve for problems that weren't there to start, or they solve for problems in a way that doesn't actually fix what was wrong. It's like a root cause analysis that has gone horribly wrong time and time again. Certain problems probably do warrant the approach they take, but I'd say that most of the problems with balance in WoW do NOT need the approach they are taking. However, I'm betting developers at WoW must think similarly, or the ones who don't aren't willing to speak up. They've been doing these bone-headed fixes for at least 2 expansions at this point. Fixes that leave you literally shaking your head in disgust or scratching your head and wondering what the heck just happened.

    They don't appear to be doing the two (bandaid fixing with logical steps AND hatching long-term solutions to the problem via better class design) simultaneously. Their bandaids suck and their long-term fix success rate isn't very good. Look at how the classes have changed every expac.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Derecho View Post
    The analogies given to Blizzard class design in this thread are absolutely on POINT.

    I don't know any game developers in real life, so I have no idea how they think about things. All I have to go off is what I see from what we get in WoW. They're so worried about getting to the root cause of the issue that they miss the easy fixes in search of a long-term, permanent fix. A lot of times, the long-term solution isn't so long term nor is it the best solution.

    Their root cause approach would be fine if they were able to attach bandaids that fixed things (I mean really fixed things) at the same time they searched for a long term solution to the problems they create themselves.

    A lot of times, I feel they identify the root problem wrong, which lead us to the funny analogies noted above on their problem solving. They solve for problems that weren't there to start, or they solve for problems in a way that doesn't actually fix what was wrong. It's like a root cause analysis that has gone horribly wrong time and time again. Certain problems probably do warrant the approach they take, but I'd say that most of the problems with balance in WoW do NOT need the approach they are taking. However, I'm betting developers at WoW must think similarly, or the ones who don't aren't willing to speak up. They've been doing these bone-headed fixes for at least 2 expansions at this point. Fixes that leave you literally shaking your head in disgust or scratching your head and wondering what the heck just happened.

    They don't appear to be doing the two (bandaid fixing with logical steps AND hatching long-term solutions to the problem via better class design) simultaneously. Their bandaids suck and their long-term fix success rate isn't very good. Look at how the classes have changed every expac.
    Classes changing every expansion is to make things still feel fresh while trying to stick to the roots of what made the class fun. I'm personally okay with that, imagine if you played any of the mage specs today the same way they played in Vanilla....it would be exceptionally boring. The main problem is they either a) don't realize the problems they create or b) don't care and just stick to what they want. If this was back in TBC/WotLK era where the game was growing strong, it would be more acceptable even if we didn't like it. However, the game is losing subs more than it's gaining new ones. It's been out for 13 years, etc. If they want this game around around 5-10 years, they need to start thinking long term and be more willing to admit mistakes and short term remedies to fix them. Which leads me to them needing someone who actually plays the classes/specs they're doing. With the current state of DK mobility, I cannot sit here and say with certainty that someone on the development team is playing a DK....because this weakness has no strength....we're not the top damage dealer and we don't have the sturdiness either. I remember them stating they wanted everyone to have a weakness(lol except rogues ofc, /s)....and I am PERFECTLY fine with our mobility being a weakness(even though it's not really what we've been about since our inception but w/e, but I remember clearly stating during beta that there is ZERO strength to our weakness to balance it out. We aren't the top dps if we have 100% uptime and we don't have the sturdiness some of the cloth classes have. So what exactly is our strength? Getting back to the point of devs not playing a dk....with the current state of mobility...if any of them actually played a DK I can't imagine them being okay with how slow we are...and if there are some playing DK's then they aren't speaking up...I personally do not know one person who is like yea dk mobility is fine.
    Rune - Came back from the death
    Cameltotem officially retired from enhance

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by RuneDK View Post
    *snip*
    I don't disagree with you at all. Everything you are saying rings true to me.

    I am not trying to make the argument that classes should stay the same, I simply mean that, before, they were able to build on the classes in new and exciting ways that enhanced the core gameplay. I don't feel the Legion's DK version fits that description.

    I also agree that it's rather dishonest of them to sell our newly acquired speed challenges by saying that we are slow but hit hard, when we are definitely slow but don't hit hard. When we hit hard, we get nerfed. There is no upside to our slowness, no payoff for moving slower than everyone else. Even the new talents don't make up for that, as they apply to one spec only. Not only is our slowness not functional or fair, it ruins the "flavor" they were going for. It's dreadful, and admitting they were wrong about it isn't something they'll do. The guy who made that decision must still be working at Blizzard.

    Blizzard only allows parity among certain classes, and we all know which classes those are. They're the ones who've been at the top of the totem poll in both PvP and PvE, with almost uninterrupted success since Vanilla. They're also classes that enjoy high mobility and damage in combat.

  6. #246
    The best technical argument against that design is that it's quite literally impossible to balance a melee spec that deals more sustained damage than other specs only when in melee range because time on target and travel distances widely vary by encounter. Can't be balanced with a meaningful difference in movement capability. Your spec either ends up vastly overpowered in encounters without movement or just plain terrible everywhere. At most, the new talent compensates a bit for the lower-end of that.

    All that said, again, for me it isn't about DPS. I hate how it feels walking at 100% movespeed. It feels like like my DK is snared all the time.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2017-07-26 at 10:06 PM.

  7. #247
    once HRW is on the same tier as BoS and Horn of Winter turns into a 45 second CD. maybe they can allow Breath to have 2 separate chances to Proc RE if your on 2+ Targets (capped at 2 so you dont have infinite runes at 5+ targets).

  8. #248
    It's not like BOS is now sooooo far ahead.

    I did a sim and had the following result:


    BOS + COF 1086k
    BOS + Critstick 1065k
    MG 1049k


    With all the recent buffs, MG isn't sooooo far behind, it got tons of buffs. I'd always prefer BOS though.

  9. #249
    Yeah, I wouldn't make the argument that they should figure out how to make it so their design of slow-moving-juggernaut works. They put that design idea on themselves to figure out and balance, which they have clearly been unable to do.

    That's why it makes no sense to keep things the way they are. The easy fix, and the one that I think we all agree on, is give us our speed back. You're right, it does feel terrible to play a DK at 100% movement speed. Who of us doesn't have a hotkey that swaps to a speed set? Who has an 18 parse because I forgot to swap out of my movement speed for a fight? Yeah, that's me. I may have parsed that low, but man, it felt good to move like that during a boss encounter

    That would fix a lot of the problem right there. But nope - can't have that. Shows that their vision of the class didn't pan out. I'm not quite sure why that's so hard to admit, especially given all the cheers that would come from them changing their minds on something so ridiculous. Now we're back to your and Rune's points on their design problem solving approach.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoeth View Post
    I have my doubts that the developers know what they want us to be doing.
    They want us permalocked in BoS. I don't think the requirement to make HRW alternative to BoS came from within the team.

  11. #251
    I hate the BoS playstyle, but then again I felt they gutted Frost in Legion anyway. I like the aesthetic of the spec, don't want to play a melee pet class and I don't like tanking on DK, much prefer Warrior and Paladin.

    As long as I can do DPS that's at least competitive with a BoS build I don't really care, with these changes I think they're just trying to make it so that a BoS build is not the clear winner because that build, to me, feels terrible in any content that's not a raid because shit dies so fast everywhere else BoS feels completely wasted.
    SW:ToR Referral code for 7 free days of play: http://www.swtor.com/r/kyRr8Z

    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are Stupid

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    I did a sim and had the following result:
    I assume you're talking about 7.2.5, right? I don't see an updated 7.3 sim yet (and this is the 7.3 thread).

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I assume you're talking about 7.2.5, right? I don't see an updated 7.3 sim yet (and this is the 7.3 thread).
    Yes, 7.2.5. It's just about talking that BOS isn't so far ahead on live servers after RW nerf and 5% buff. MG was buffed by 5%, only BOS spec suffered from that nerf.

    There seems to be a general opinion that MG is currently sooooooooooooooooooooo far behind that you can't pick it. With recent hotfix, you are NOT forced to pick BOS on live servers. And without COF + HRW, BOS is pretty weak. You need a certain talent setup to make BOS work.

    That's why they also buffed BOS by another 10% (additionally to the 21% buff).

  14. #254
    Yep all should be competitive in 7.2.5. Remember that sim is a best-case scenario with perfect execution. It's vastly easier to perfectly execute Glacial Advance or Obliteration than BoS.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Yes, 7.2.5. It's just about talking that BOS isn't so far ahead on live servers after RW nerf and 5% buff. MG was buffed by 5%, only BOS spec suffered from that nerf.

    There seems to be a general opinion that MG is currently sooooooooooooooooooooo far behind that you can't pick it. With recent hotfix, you are NOT forced to pick BOS on live servers. And without COF + HRW, BOS is pretty weak. You need a certain talent setup to make BOS work.

    That's why they also buffed BOS by another 10% (additionally to the 21% buff).
    They buffed BoS by 10% to offset the huge duration loss it will suffer by not being able to use HRW.

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