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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Haha, what an utterly predictable reaction from Asmongold's band of followers (zealots).

    He doesn't feel that the game has a sense of accomplishment? You agree with him? Well, if you both didn't have your heads so far shoved up your own assholes, you'd be able to realize that your opinions on what the game feels like to you are not rule of law.

    If his and yours "sense of accomplishment" would come from restricting the vast majority from accessing content aimed at the lowest common denominator with rewards to match that fact, then you're not only arrogant; You're shit out of luck, since that vast majority pays the bills.

    But hey, intelligence doesn't bite on the Asmongold goons, they're too busy having someone preach to them about how they should feel when playing this game.

    And it's hilarious I might add, that you and Asmongold pretends to know better why WOTLK pulled 12 million subs than the people actually sitting with the data, AKA the developers of this game. As I said before, arrogance + a healthy dosage of "head-up-your-own-ass"-ism + you = true.
    I think I love this post.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    Which is different from running NH HC, hoping for TF tier or trinket only that now you have an additional layer of RNG you need to beat in order to get your piece.
    Yeah having to run NH the rest of the expansion for items that may never drop, I'm not looking forward to that but that's the situation we got ourselves in when we asked for this titanforging bull crap. With the way this suggestion is constructed the only RNG you'd have to overcome in NH is the item dropping and you winning it and that would be it.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post

    Power creep doesn't matter so long as the opposition follows suit. Shattering the reward structure just to solve a theoretical problem is absolutely not worth it.
    This sums up how I feel as well. Its not nearly as much of an issue as some are making it out to be, and every "solution" I've heard is far worse than the problem it's trying to solve.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    No we have inflation because Blizzard add more iLvls unnecessarily every patch.
    If you look at my original post it's quite easy to at least make it better.
    For example, LFR ToS drops 895 gear and heroic NH drops 890 gear. In what world does that make any sense at all? LFR ToS should at best drop the same iLvl gear as normal NH.

    Check this out:
    LFR T1: 800
    Normal T1: 810
    Heroic T1: 820
    Mythic T1: 830
    Mythic T2: 840
    Mythic T3: 850
    Mythic T4: 860

    By separating the difficulties by 10 iLvls and then just adding 10 when a new tier comes out not only do the iLvls increase a lot less, we also solve the problem of having to run trivial (for your raid group based on your chosen difficulty) difficulties because of upgrades.
    LFR KJ drops 895. Most of LFR drops 885, which is at or lower than Heroic NH depending on boss.

    And where does M+ fit in this? Dungeons? World quest gear? The endgame isn't about raiding only anymore. You have to think about the game as a whole. Also, a mere 10 ilvl upgrade does mean running trivial content might be very worthwhile for trinket, offpieces and tier sets because 10 ilvl's worth of stats does not offset the power boost of some trinkets and set pieces at all. Christ even now a 860 Arcanocrystal is better than some 900+ N ToS trinkets for some specs. There's a reason for the big ilvl jump each tier, to ensure the new shit is better than the old shit. And even then Blizz has to nerf the old shit time and again like for Draught of Souls.

    And what does this achieve anyway? Oh, we do 600K DPS in Antorus instead of 1.3m!!... why do you give a shit? Numbers are numbers. So long as the opposition follows suit it barely matters. It's certainly not worth throwing a wrench into the entire expansion's gearing system.

  5. #105
    Its not about the numbers themselves. Its about content being trivial to fast.

    Go back to NH in ToS and you roflstomp the place because of power scaling instead of it still being somewhat of a challenge.
    And during the tier itself you scale up so hard that 1 shot mechanics are needed to actually punish people for mistakes because you scale so hard between entering for the first time and 5 months later, when content should still be relevant.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Its not about the numbers themselves. Its about content being trivial to fast.

    Go back to NH in ToS and you roflstomp the place because of power scaling instead of it still being somewhat of a challenge.
    And during the tier itself you scale up so hard that 1 shot mechanics are needed to actually punish people for mistakes because you scale so hard between entering for the first time and 5 months later, when content should still be relevant.
    Mythic Nighthold will stick kick the ass of an unprepared raid. After the easymode bosses at least. Hell Mythic Helya can still kick your ass if you don't avoid all the damage being thrown out, we still can't take these 5m damage beams to the face. Mythic EN is easy but it was always easy. And it's old content anyways. You could always come back and stomp earlier raids when geared to the grills, going back to vanilla. Maybe it's a bit easier than normal in Legion. But it's not like it the previous tier has ever mattered since Wrath.

    As for the comment on one-shot mechanics, I honestly didn't notice more of them this xpack than there usually are. There are too many soaking mechanics, but that's a ToS problem just like being too melee friendly was a Nighthold problem. It has very little to do with gear inflation.

  7. #107
    My guilt never did Mythic Trial of Valor, we went there half way through M NH progress because we lacked some main raiders for the night and 1 shot Guarm and killed Helya in a dozen attempts.
    Yes the power scaling trivializes fights half a tier down.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #108
    I don't really understand why everyone thinks ilvl inflation is such a big problem; people like getting upgrades, and the system proposed by OP would've made stepping from normal to mythic raiding even less rewarding (in terms of ilvl) than it already is.

    Power creep is not really a problem when content is being continuously deprecated, or there are procedural increases in difficulty (i.e. m+). The model where people were expected to run old raids long after the next tier released has been dead since BC. People seem to continuously claim that power creep is a bad thing, and it's never really been clear why that was.

    ed: I mean, if the claim is that you want the BC model back... well. I'll just say that I was relatively well-progressed in BC, and that model sucked.
    Last edited by Cheze; 2017-07-20 at 10:23 PM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    I don't really understand why everyone thinks ilvl inflation is such a big problem; people like getting upgrades, and the system proposed by OP would've made stepping from normal to mythic raiding even less rewarding (in terms of ilvl) than it already is.

    Power creep is not really a problem when content is being continuously deprecated, or there are procedural increases in difficulty (i.e. m+). The model where people were expected to run old raids long after the next tier released has been dead since BC. People seem to continuously claim that power creep is a bad thing, and it's never really been clear why that was.

    ed: I mean, if the claim is that you want the BC model back... well. I'll just say that I was relatively well-progressed in BC, and that model sucked.
    There are plenty of examples out there and even in this very thread. You just have to want to read and retain the information.

  10. #110
    That makes absolutely no sense unless you want no one doing some of those raid difficulties. I agree its out of control, but Titanforging and even warforging is a main feature of the expansion and one of the main reasons Mythic+ works.
    If mythic was only 5 item levels higher than heroic its just a waste of time to do it at all. You get 2-3 more pieces from heroic than you do from Mythic. You didn't think that through.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    I do. I think the massive power inflation causes two problems:

    1. Content is nerfed into irrelevance way too fast.
    2. It limits their options for encounter design - they end up building too many one shot mechanics.

    To me the second item is the important one. Most mythic raiders this expansion have complained about how the raids are designed with super unforgiving mechanics that wipe you if you make a wrong move. I believe they do this because they need to make a fight that's hard but doable for an undergeared method team 2 weeks in, but is still hard for random guild number 6 four months later, which shows up with an extra 8-10 item levels and artifact traits. A one shot mechanic is hard regardless of how much gear you have, so it works in both circumstances. A tight dps or hps check does not.
    1. Just isn't true. Titanforging is the reason for these things, not a steep increase in item level. They are never irrelevant either thanks to titanforging. Ask the top guilds running Nighthold every week for old set bonus upgrades.
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  11. #111
    You need to scale because the mythic+ content scales and you must scale with it.

    The addition of 1 shot mechanics isn't a thing. I haven't seen it any more than normal this xpak.

    The "relevance" of old content was made moot by flying, no? On top of that, they did scale up the mobs. Would not a better solution be to scale them up at a higher rate?

    Power gain is as good as it has ever been, and that's a good thing. We should start to feel much more powerful with each piece of loot, because that makes getting loot rewarding, which in the end is by far the most important aspect of the game.

    Stop pushing the game in the wrong direction because your main is a scrub, and someone with decent gear blew you out of the water in LFR this week.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by GutsAP View Post
    Who gives a shit if people do more damage and have a high ilevel?
    Because huge numbers are ridiculous.

    We've got non-tanks with over 5 million health now...next expac we're going to be rocking 20mil+ health unless they do another stat squish

    20 million health, doing 50 million dps, against bosses with 100 billion health...it's just ridiculous.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    There are plenty of examples out there and even in this very thread. You just have to want to read and retain the information.
    I disagree that very much compelling reasoning has been offered

    gear inflation doesn't limit encounter design, since encounters are tuned around expected ilvl. If everyone were 880 ilvl instead of 925 there wouldn't be fewer one shots or whatever, mechanics would just do less damage in absolute terms.

    content doesn't become irrelevant 'too fast.' Do people really still want farming EN/ToV/etc to be a reasonable source of useful gear? Those raids were current for months, there's no reason to incentivize people to continue farming them forever (any more than blizzard already have)

  14. #114
    This feels like a non-issue. Numbers go up, what's the problem? As long as content is scaled correctly to the player's power the actual number is rather meaningless, but players like to see bigger ones than before. In the past this wasn't an issue of content design but because the servers and game engine were struggling. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

  15. #115
    so basically over a year ..mythic raiders would have gained 30 itemlevels over 4 (arguably 3.5) tiers ..haha, this post is ridiculous ..join a mythic guild if you are salty about not having good gear: if your are unable to: do alot of m+'s and hope for TF's ..if your are unable to do even that, go to mmo champ and suggest a ridiculous itemlvl scaling over raidcontent

  16. #116
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Umbrex View Post
    so basically over a year ..mythic raiders would have gained 30 itemlevels over 4 (arguably 3.5) tiers ..haha, this post is ridiculous ..join a mythic guild if you are salty about not having good gear: if your are unable to: do alot of m+'s and hope for TF's ..if your are unable to do even that, go to mmo champ and suggest a ridiculous itemlvl scaling over raidcontent
    Simply what i wanted to write::

    I mean Tbc. 1st tier 115 ilvl last tier 164 ilvl
    Look Wotlk . Naxx 200 ilvl to icc 277 ilvl...
    Cata ? 359 ilvl to 414 ilvl if i recall right.
    Mist of pandaria...489 ilvl to 574 + the upgrade system to 588 i think...
    Draenor i didn^t played.

    In terms you want something like vanilla but even worse..
    Classic wow has low ilvl but you forget the power of item...People With 1st tier was doing 700 dps ... Al Quiraz and Nax people where doing near 1.8 k dps.. even 2 k some people watching video.

    So insane power like you write is dismished by raid bosses with a lot of mechanics and a lot of health..

    Btw how many guild have killed Mythic Kj since we are 1 months into this tier ??? quess what 2... So your insane power shows actually it doesn^t exist at all....

  17. #117
    Elemental Lord Sierra85's Avatar
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    where do crafting items fit into this equation?
    Hi

  18. #118
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    Titanforging ruins everything

    The tiers have to inflate the numbers

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