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  1. #21
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caath View Post
    Frost is currently boring as hell. Frost has the most simplicated rotation from all 3 specs.

    I would go for fire/arcane both specs are super good for m+ and viable for raiding. Fire is much more lege depended than Arcane tho.
    You're doing frost wrong.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
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    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    You're doing frost wrong.
    Oh rly? Then please bring to the light the complicated and engaging aspect of the frost mage Currently frost is exactly this:
    Cast frostbolt until anything lights up or big dmg cds(EB, Frost orb) are up, after they are up use them and continue spamming frostbolt. It is not even hyperbola... When playing Frot you don't have to think ahead, manage mana, work on positioning(shimmer + instant casts) or even time your cds even half as much as you have to on 2 other specs. You just use abilities and cds as they comes. Frost compared to Fire and Arcane is simplicated to the point where playing it is so boring that it hurts.
    Last edited by Caath; 2017-07-28 at 03:46 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    You're doing frost wrong.
    I would agree the frost is a boring spec in the current passive config using 4/2 tier + lonely winter incanters flo, shimmer, and thermal void. Here's what I do.

    Shimmer when I need to move
    Ice lance after every flurry proc/cast
    Precast ebon bolt and keep it on cd
    use frozen orb on cooldown unless I'm about to have IV or see some opportunity for a burst phase
    If I have a brain freeze and fof proc together, i ice lance first, then flurry, then ice lance again
    I double hero at opportune times, and cast my trinket on CD
    Frostbolt 50% of the time
    prepot and pot during fight

    What am I missing?

    Honestly, it's a cake walk. With fire I have to change legos, keybinds, and talents with nearly each pull, and the crap RNG ST with bracers is at least keeps my on my feet, and the aoe is fun as hell. Frost is fun in the sense I can largely eliminate skill as a major factor in the parse, since the rotation is so vanilla, samey and passive. It's easy to follow.

    I don't frost much, so I may be missing some intricacies. I'd love to learn, actually, and I'm serious. Where can I shine as frost, in the area of skill. I'm looking for tips.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2017-07-28 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    If I have a brain freeze and fof proc together, i ice lance first, then flurry, then ice lance again
    Figures.

    You're missing your Frostbolt/Ebon Shatters.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    Figures.

    You're missing your Frostbolt/Ebon Shatters.
    Yup, chain reaction is absolutely huge for your damage. Pre-casting ebonbolt is deffo not the way to go either.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    Figures.

    You're missing your Frostbolt/Ebon Shatters.
    He is doing it right. You don't go Frost bolt + Brain freeze, if you have FoF and brain freeze at the same time

  7. #27
    So much nonsense in this thread.

    The classic ebonbolt opener currently sims highest, you should absolutely precast it. You are also somewhat free to choose between munching the FoF into a Flurry-Shatter combo or spending it first, both sim about equal for practical purposes (for details see AT). However, you should definitely prioritize the shatter combo if your chain reaction is about to fall off. Just never Flurry without a Frostbolt first, the only exception being when you absolutely positively have to gtfo of something and are out of shimmer stacks.

    There are many other little things that can be minmaxed. Frost is currently very easy to play alright, but hard to master. With all due respect, but if you think it's easy you're still far from the top.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Caath View Post
    He is doing it right. You don't go Frost bolt + Brain freeze, if you have FoF and brain freeze at the same time
    You do though, if you're mid-cast of Frostbolt.
    Also, note that he went IL - Flurry - IL, where he could absolutely have slotted in a Frostbolt before the flurry.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsu2881 View Post
    So much nonsense in this thread.

    The classic ebonbolt opener currently sims highest, you should absolutely precast it. You are also somewhat free to choose between munching the FoF into a Flurry-Shatter combo or spending it first, both sim about equal for practical purposes (for details see AT). However, you should definitely prioritize the shatter combo if your chain reaction is about to fall off. Just never Flurry without a Frostbolt first, the only exception being when you absolutely positively have to gtfo of something and are out of shimmer stacks.

    There are many other little things that can be minmaxed. Frost is currently very easy to play alright, but hard to master. With all due respect, but if you think it's easy you're still far from the top.
    Hard to master ech? You should try to play classes that are really hard to master There is one situation where you can get confused, when you have brain freeze + fof, and according to what you said... you just cast fb + flurry so nothing changes. And to be honest between rank 1 frost and rank 50 frost there are 3 differences. Brain freeze procs, gear and time kill. Frost is BM spec for mages

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Caath View Post
    Hard to master ech? You should try to play classes that are really hard to master There is one situation where you can get confused, when you have brain freeze + fof, and according to what you said... you just cast fb + flurry so nothing changes. And to be honest between rank 1 frost and rank 50 frost there are 3 differences. Brain freeze procs, gear and time kill. Frost is BM spec for mages
    It seems I was right.

    I never said that there was only one situation where you can get confused, no idea where you got that from. I also never said or meant to imply to that the top50 logs are the benchmark for good play. You know that RNG as well as ignoring/abusing mechanics drive the last 100 positions more than anything else. However, if you actually check the logs you find mistakes in all of them. Let me repeat that, in all of them.

    Furthermore, and I hope you're aware of that, the logs of the best mages (best players of all classes, as a matter of fact) are always private. Both to safeguard strategies but also to prevent people from logwhoring and to get their heads on the mechanics.

    In that regard, here are some examples of things to optimize that go beyond your simplistic depiction of the spec:

    1. Shimmerlancing (when you can afford the risk)
    2. Soaking multiple mechanics without dropping in DPS (1 GCD fast block)
    3. Proc delays, positioning, and cooldown adjustment according to the timings of the fight

    The last one is the most important in terms of DPS. The minmaxing happens for each fight, not for your rotation. Your job as a frost mage is to provide maximum utility for your raid (double block, counterspell, spellsteal, shimmerbait, invis-cheese, kiting) while taking the lowest amount of damage (barrier + shimmer). If you think this spec is meant to be played in turret mode you have a long way to go.

  11. #31
    You know that Fire and Arcane specs have to do exactly the same things listed by you while having harder rotation overall and they also have harder times dealing with mechanics (they can't cheese it with 2 ice blocks)? I also wouldn't call delaying cd skilfull or even worth to notice in min max as 'what makes spec hard to master'. Everyone is doing that. Literally everything you said is adjusting to the fight, positioning, timing etc.what we are talking about is min max in frost rotation. For example there is a lot of min max things for Arcane, only few of them are interupting Evo after 3 ticks, instead of going full Evo, Using MoA on CD or only with Ap depending on fight lenght. Delaying AP if it desync due to T20. Saving mana, burning mana. With Arcane you have to pay attention to many things not only if something is glowing, and there is a large area for rotation improvements every single time. When on Frost you are just like 'meh not inuf procs QQ'.
    Last edited by Caath; 2017-08-01 at 10:27 AM.

  12. #32
    Frost is a higher APM spec, when you play Arcane you constantly have to plan the next 10-20 seconds of your rotation. When you're mentally juggling this with mechanics it makes Frost a lot more forgiving to play.

    I can see why people find Frost fun -- I personally find it incredibly relaxing -- but I really think 7.2.5+ Frost pales in comparison to Arcane/Fire, it's become a really uninteresting spec with very little depth to it since they changed TV. The only reason I like playing it is because it's a really good progression spec IMO, with high mobility, a straight-forward rotation and lots of soaking.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Caath View Post
    You know that Fire and Arcane specs have to do exactly the same things listed by you while having harder rotation overall and they also have harder times dealing with mechanics (they can't cheese it with 2 ice blocks)? I also wouldn't call delaying cd skilfull or even worth to notice in min max as 'what makes spec hard to master'. Everyone is doing that. Literally everything you said is adjusting to the fight, positioning, timing etc.what we are talking about is min max in frost rotation. For example there is a lot of min max things for Arcane, only few of them are interupting Evo after 3 ticks, instead of going full Evo, Using MoA on CD or only with Ap depending on fight lenght. Delaying AP if it desync due to T20. Saving mana, burning mana. With Arcane you have to pay attention to many things not only if something is glowing, and there is a large area for rotation improvements every single time. When on Frost you are just like 'meh not inuf procs QQ'.
    I did not make a comparison between specs, I simply defended that looking at rotational simplicity is not sufficient to judge overall complexity. I also said a lot more than just that you should adjust to the fight, ponits which you chose to ignore. What you call something I frankly do not care. I find it hilarious though that you first dismiss my points regarding cooldown management, but then use the exact same argument to justify the complexity of Arcane ("Using MoA on CD or only with Ap depending on fight lenght. Delaying AP if it desync due to T20."). You've both taken away the credibility of your argument and proven my point in a single sentence, congratulations. Much to learn you have, young padawan.

    You also don't get to define what should be talked about, because that arbitrary limitation affects the discussion unjustly. You could say that Arcane is a joke to play because you only need to bind half the amount of buttons compared to Fire and a third of the amount of buttons compared to Frost. You could also point out that it has an AOE spell rotation that you could play much better on guitar-hero bongos. And that the more frequent burn phases make the spec less punishing. However, none of that speaks for the complexity of the spec, which lies elsewhere. The same reasoning is true for Frost.

    Regardless, sorry for stepping into your cave. I'll leave it at that.

  14. #34
    What he tried to tell you (and a lot of other ppl too) is that everything a Frost mage has to look out for is the same for Arcane and Fire while those 2 specs have more things to check on top of it, making frost the easiest of the 3 specs to play (a shame since it is more or less the strongest of the 3 specs).

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral Salt Bae's Avatar
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    Least frost has two builds it can play with Thermal Void and Glacial Spike, both are viable. I myself enjoy the latter build, 3.5m Glacial spike crits are tasty. The other two specs lean on legiondaries much more than Frost does in my experience.

  16. #36
    Thanks for the comments on my basic frost rotation. While I do feel that frost is easier to play than fire(and more so arcane) I'm no expert in the spec. I'm still running fire but I've been gearing for frost, reached 940+ on frost weapon this weekend and I'm 921 equipped as frost w/ hero ring + lego trinket 4/6 t20, 2/6 t19, shark trinket.

    I do feel I'm missing out of some of the intricacies of the spec because I'm not parsing well at all now that my ilvl went up so much(I think I was 904 ilvl frost weapon this weekend). Now that I have the gear to actually accomplish good logs, I may look more into frost. How terrible is using the lego trinket gimping me assuming I'm wearing 900 shark, but have 900 whispers and 900 owl as well, and the 910 harjatan haste trinket.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise of the Leviathan View Post
    Least frost has two builds it can play with Thermal Void and Glacial Spike, both are viable. I myself enjoy the latter build, 3.5m Glacial spike crits are tasty. The other two specs lean on legiondaries much more than Frost does in my experience.
    Yeah, but legendaries aren't so much a crutch as they are an unobtainable requirement. That makes the other specs even harder vs frost because you have to obtain ie the bracers and belt for fire to even be competitive with huge RNG. As mentioned, I'm running now currently very closely competing frost and fire specs(920/921 equipped) and have bis 10/12 fire legos, and only the universal legos for frost. I seem to be doing better single target as frost even though I have invested the year in bis legos for fire + a year of practice and slowly climbing ilvl brackets(which are necessary to even have the conversation).

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsu2881 View Post
    I did not make a comparison between specs, I simply defended that looking at rotational simplicity is not sufficient to judge overall complexity. I also said a lot more than just that you should adjust to the fight, ponits which you chose to ignore. What you call something I frankly do not care. I find it hilarious though that you first dismiss my points regarding cooldown management, but then use the exact same argument to justify the complexity of Arcane ("Using MoA on CD or only with Ap depending on fight lenght. Delaying AP if it desync due to T20."). You've both taken away the credibility of your argument and proven my point in a single sentence, congratulations. Much to learn you have, young padawan.

    You also don't get to define what should be talked about, because that arbitrary limitation affects the discussion unjustly. You could say that Arcane is a joke to play because you only need to bind half the amount of buttons compared to Fire and a third of the amount of buttons compared to Frost. You could also point out that it has an AOE spell rotation that you could play much better on guitar-hero bongos. And that the more frequent burn phases make the spec less punishing. However, none of that speaks for the complexity of the spec, which lies elsewhere. The same reasoning is true for Frost.

    Regardless, sorry for stepping into your cave. I'll leave it at that.
    When playing Frost delaying CDs is not recommended except from situation when you will bl very soon, as it is dps loss. Fight lenght also does not affect your dps rotation even half as much as it does for Arcane mage (damn it does not affect it at all...). And you clearly do not understand what CD managament means. With Frost you use everything on CD, there is not much to talk about. There is no situations like 'should i use MoA now with PoM, or delay both for AP, which will be up in 30s, or if I use it now will PoM will be back again? And if I delay MoA will I have enough mana for burn phase etc.' And you have to do that while looking at your mana, planning another RoP usage, and paying much more attention to positioning (yeah Arcane mages have to position much better), while doing the same mechanics as Frost is doing. But seems like for some people even Frost can be 'complex' spec

    Ps. Arcane same amount of button for ST rotation as Frost
    Last edited by Caath; 2017-08-01 at 08:20 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    Thanks for the comments on my basic frost rotation. While I do feel that frost is easier to play than fire(and more so arcane) I'm no expert in the spec. I'm still running fire but I've been gearing for frost, reached 940+ on frost weapon this weekend and I'm 921 equipped as frost w/ hero ring + lego trinket 4/6 t20, 2/6 t19, shark trinket.

    I do feel I'm missing out of some of the intricacies of the spec because I'm not parsing well at all now that my ilvl went up so much(I think I was 904 ilvl frost weapon this weekend). Now that I have the gear to actually accomplish good logs, I may look more into frost. How terrible is using the lego trinket gimping me assuming I'm wearing 900 shark, but have 900 whispers and 900 owl as well, and the 910 harjatan haste trinket.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, but legendaries aren't so much a crutch as they are an unobtainable requirement. That makes the other specs even harder vs frost because you have to obtain ie the bracers and belt for fire to even be competitive with huge RNG. As mentioned, I'm running now currently very closely competing frost and fire specs(920/921 equipped) and have bis 10/12 fire legos, and only the universal legos for frost. I seem to be doing better single target as frost even though I have invested the year in bis legos for fire + a year of practice and slowly climbing ilvl brackets(which are necessary to even have the conversation).
    Actually, this thread has probably helped my frost more than posting logs, lol. It does appear from the comments, that I am not properly managing chain reaction with the spec, and while it was easy to get from my rotation notes, it might have been harder to derive from logs, since they would show relatively random but competent chain reaction management just by the nature of the spell. So, cheers. Thread has been well worth the effort, if not just for that.

    edited: What does it say that I was already absolutely dominating the other 2 frost mages in my guild, when I deign to enter their magical frost territory from my terrible fire spec.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2017-08-01 at 09:43 PM.

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