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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hammer of Wrath
    30 yd Range
    Instant, 1m Cooldown
    When your Retribution Aura deals damage, you gain Reckoning.
    Consume 50 stacks of Reckoning to hurl a magical hammer that strikes an enemy for (700% of Spell power) Holy damage, and you gain Avenging Wrath for X seconds.
    *Fixed that for ya - The name that once adorned our action bar should return with a vengeance!

    Seriously though, I really love the concepts you put out. I really miss seals and HoW

  2. #42
    Hammer of Wrath should return . End of story. I dont care how and what it is going to do but it should be there.

    Other than that they could easily fix the mobility and self-party healing coupled by a raid wide cd (i really dont get the concept of aegis being a channeled spell used by a tank like wtf do you people even play the game) gating and tuning them behind mana.
    2 rows of talents that will be mana dependent and utilize mana to work /activate.
    Healing (one clever aoe that would replace flash, one self that would be coupled be a strong attack -- a bit altered jv or lolholy wrath -- and one raid wide cd like aegis tuned properly) should be using mana and not hopo although they could add some hopo requirements but for preparation reasons only not to be consumed by the spell.
    Same could happen with mobility: have a passive increase depending on current mana, have a faster but mana gated ability (one that would consume mana for as long as it stayed up), have an even faster ability irrelevant to mana but with charges (much like current horse although again they should improve that shit).

    All in all instead of treating retribution and prot to some extent like specs with no other resources than hopo and w/e they thing prot has while mana is there as a second bar constantly sitting on 100% is only reducing their ideas and solutions.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Wrath Ret with TV as a 12sec CD move and baseline Divine Purpose as a chance for CS to reset TV CD. entire removal of Holy Power. Or at least make Holy power a bar that fills as you do damage, that when you hit 100% you can Cast Wings or Something.
    I would feel to much as shadow priest or fury warrior with using stuff at 100.
    The problem with holy power is it just feels to much like combo points or chi, which has been doen little to much. Shadow had a nice rework on their resource system.
    I don't have a solution for it right now, il be back from brainstorming soon.

    People will hate me for it, but hammer of wrath is gone and it's fine without. I think judment, maybe because of the animation feels like hammer of wrath.. you know you throw your hammer. I don't think ret is missing an execute abillity and I agree with it not being a paladin niche.

    I dislike the fact with have a 8 second window to do our damage without that buff we suck is a annoying gameplay mechanic imo. I wish judment would do something different (something like a dot for 8 second and a slow for 4) without there is space for a return of seals, which is to iconic since vanilla and they could even limit it to 2 different kind of seals. 1 could be how Zeal is working now but include a single target mech to it as well. seal 2 would be utillity or defence.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2017-07-24 at 12:40 PM.

  4. #44

    (since I don't know much about Holy/Prot, I left them empty on purpose)

    Something like this I guess. More spells baseline, since I hate the fact that one spec has an ability and the other(s) have to talent for it. I didn't explain the spells, but most would be the WotLK versions.

    Exorcism would be an exception, as I liked the MoP version greatly, and I'd buff it by giving it the Chaos Bolt treatment when The Art of War procs (with Proc, Crit is guaranteed and crit chance is added as damage -> gives crit scaling and a procced Exo wouldn't be dead last in prio)


    Seals would act like they did in MoP, however the Seals themselves would change a little.

    • Seal of Vengeance would function like the WotLK counter part
    • Seal of Righteousness adds cleave to single target abilities and more damage to AoE spells.
    • Seal of Justice = PvP Seal (enemy can't run faster than 100%)
    • Seal of Light would reduce your damage by 25% but heal you and your allies in a 8 yard radius by X amount of damage you deal (no split heal > for damage spikes perhaps).


    Light's Leap as a gap closer similar to Tirion's Leaps and charges at Frozen Throne / Light's Hope.

    I couldn't decide whether I want Divine Purpose as a talent or as a baseline ability for Ret. Personally I really like it, but from what I've seen many don't, so I decided not to baseline it.

    What I'd also love to see are Auras, but having both Auras and Seals as passives is a bit much I guess. That's why I didn't really think much about them.

    Most importantly, however: The Judgment debuff needs to go.

    All in all I think that this would bring back much of the beloved WotLK Ret, without alienating the current Rets.
    Last edited by Kelemar; 2017-07-24 at 09:53 PM.

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    What boggles my mind to no end is why is Divine Hammer a thing at all.
    Prots have HOTR baseline, yet Rets are supposed to talent.
    Even fething warriors have WW baseline, i.e. a spammable basic AoE move.
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  6. #46
    Honestly I can't think of a better time I've had fun with Ret than in WoD...I've played a Paladin since BC...I played both Ret and Prot...and the most fun I had was WoD Ret.
    Last edited by Excellion; 2017-07-24 at 11:17 PM.

  7. #47
    Well a thought... if they were to adhere to this current set up at least the following needs to happen.

    -Hammer of Wrath: We need it badly.
    -Judgment: Instead of applying a debuff it may as well just give us the Retribution passive as a maintain buff via Judgment.
    --Judgment deals damage and give you Retribution for X seconds increasing all damage done and reducing damage taken.
    --Mastery now buffs these bonuses and Judgment damage.

    At the very least it takes an odd passive and minimal work to fix things.

  8. #48
    Rejoice boyz with the t20 we got 2 spells that need to fit in that window
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  9. #49
    Looking at Ret now here are the things I like and want to keep:

    1) Shield of Vengeance. I like its interaction and that in more trivial content I can use it as a savage way to play. I particularly like the legendary bracer effect of it as well.

    2) Blade of Wrath. I like the conjured sword aesthetic.

    3) Crusade. I actually found that it's ok doing below average damage with stupid high burst. It made super difficult pulls in M+ manageable. It was a fair weakness IMO.

    4) DS tornado trait. It's actually pretty fun to use. I wish we had old animation though.

    5) Wake of Ashes. It's another fun to use ability.

    Things I miss:

    1) Hand of Sacrifice. I liked using it when shit was hitting the fan and we were short an external cooldown.

    2) That old tier bonus where when we crit it stacked a rolling DoT. Ret always desperately needed some form of crit interaction.

    3) WoD Final Verdict. I missed the utility, animation (I wish it was a sword if you tmog'd a sword, or an axe if you used an axe tho) and the way it pushed DS into the ST rotation.

    4) PoJ or LaotL. I'm not terribly fond of the pony aesthetically.

    5) Seal of Blood/Martyr. I really liked the burst niche, where we had built in self healing to help offset it. It was a really fun time, despite some of its shortcomings/balance issues.

    Things I don't miss at all:

    1) Auras. They're not super interesting despite all the "flavor". They're much better suited to a Holy Paladin. Having multiple gives way too much versatility which either makes them broken/mandatory or completely useless.

    2) Blessings. Honestly at best they're fire and forget, at worst they're what we had before it was removed. They're not fun, they never were fun. They had a little flavor sure, but there are much better ways to get flavor. You end up having way too much versatility in abilities, see above.

    3) I don't miss execution sentence/lights hammer. They were kinda silly and clunky. I found Wake of Ashes to be better and more fun.

    4) Guardian of the Kings. I didn't like it much. Not much else to say.

    5) Most Seals. Contrary to what some people like, having an ST seal and an AOE seal wasn't fun gameplay. It was super binary and uninteresting. It also runs into the same issue where having a ton of utility built into these gives Ret's a bit too much which makes it mandatory or useless.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    What boggles my mind to no end is why is Divine Hammer a thing at all.
    Prots have HOTR baseline, yet Rets are supposed to talent.
    Even fething warriors have WW baseline, i.e. a spammable basic AoE move.
    I will order one Logic please, extra large, with sourcream.
    I agree with you on this one, but doesn't whirlwind have a rather short cooldown? 4 or 5 seconds? I seem to remember it used to way back when but I haven't played a warrior in probably 3 expansions.

    It is odd that while we have divine storm, both consecrate and divine hammer are both talented for Ret.

    Is it really so much to ask for a couple of different buttons for AoE vs. ST? Shit even if we want some passive cleave we have to spec into Zeal, which right now is even better on ST if you're using Blade of Wrath. Ret is in such a ridiculous place right now, none of the talent selections make sense.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalamian View Post
    I agree with you on this one, but doesn't whirlwind have a rather short cooldown? 4 or 5 seconds? .
    No, it has no cooldown for both Arms and Furry, with both specs having it opearate in a slightly different manner while interacting with different abilities to clearly distinguish both specs' methods of doing AoE damage besides obvious WW spam.
    Quite difficult task, it appears, to design such designs. Doubly so when regarding Retribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalamian View Post
    It is odd that while we have divine storm, both consecrate and divine hammer are both talented for Ret.
    It's not odd, per se.
    it's fething unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalamian View Post
    Is it really so much to ask for a couple of different buttons for AoE vs. ST? Shit even if we want some passive cleave we have to spec into Zeal, which right now is even better on ST if you're using Blade of Wrath. Ret is in such a ridiculous place right now, none of the talent selections make sense.
    Zeal is awful as far as cleaving goes.
    There's this thing called Sweeping Strikes, and THAT is how you cleave.
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  12. #52
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    Most suggestions include bringing back seals. Has everyone forgotten how boring the seal play style was? Sitting around auto attacking and praying for casino to proc or the huge complaints on SoV being too much ramp time to deal dmg and limited target swapping?

    Everyone was advocating for how long to replace seals as oir primary damage tools to strikes. Heck Crusader Strike, Templar's Strike and Blade of Wrath were names thrown out by the community on how paladins should have been redesigned away from the seal mechanic we have.

    In my opinion i prefer the current version for damage to the seal mechanics albeit i do agree with others that certain changes ned to be made.

    DP should be baseline as it adds the unpredictability to our rotation. Crusade should replace avenging wrath as it is a vital component to our gameplay. Exorcism and art of war was a nice interaction. Perhaps bring back hammer of wrath as a 5 holy power talent finisher.

  13. #53
    I would make retribution and protection paladin the same as it was in WOD. All the same abilities and talents from WOD. I would buff hammer of the righteous a little bit.

  14. #54
    Anything but this awful "class fantasy". They probably spent a good 10 minutes designing rets this expansion. They've never been this bad. I even prefer the auto-attacking SoC-paladin from vanilla over this crap.

    I'm switching mains for the first time in 12 years. It would be nice of Blizzard to allow us to sacrifice a character and give it's reputation, FoS-achievements and legacy-achievements to another char if they intend to keep us this way.

  15. #55
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    I want Blade of Wrath to use the Greater Judgment spell effect honestly.

    Also, I want the old Templar's Verdict animation back.

    I want Empowered Divine Storm from WoD back, and I want to use it on single target.

    Excecution Sentence needs a new spell effect, and the hammer needs to fall from the sky much much much faster, almost instantly, I cannot take the current one seriously.
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  16. #56
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    Figured I'd add my two cents.

    Stuff I'd like to see:

    Make our Blessings be actual Utility again instead of a fire and forget buff to someone. Turn Wisdom into an Innervate. Have kings be a defensive cool down we can put on our selves or others that works like the old Divine Protection.

    Make Judgement our Hard hitting nuke instead of TV. This could fit the Fantasy well and could buff us or cause different effects like turning a Crusader strike into a TV. Have it be stronger based on Holy Power used. This would also get rid of the clunky and god awful Arm's copy paste gameplay we have now.

    WE NEED A RANGED ATTACK BACK! Period. End of story. All other Melee has a ranged attack they can use. We just have Taunt and Judgement, and pulling or wasting a judgement at range is almost never preferable. Give us back Hammer of Justice or Exorcism. This way we can do something at a distance when not in melee range or finish off an enemy running away.

    Been said again and again, but we need more mobility. Legion has had a lot of movement needed in fights and being sluggish is a struggle. Baseline divine steed has helped a bit, but it is not enough. We don't need to zip around like a monk on drugs, but we need something else.

    I would like seeing seals or auras back, but can live if they don't return.

  17. #57
    High Overlord Temna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firann View Post
    Most suggestions include bringing back seals. Has everyone forgotten how boring the seal play style was? Sitting around auto attacking and praying for casino to proc or the huge complaints on SoV being too much ramp time to deal dmg and limited target swapping?
    The same could be be said about the old aura just being fire and forget buffs, yet they returned in Legion being actually interesting choices with various strengths depedning on the group, and the content. So if that level of attention was given to seals for ret and do something similar with prot (oaths perhaps), then that would be a interesting bit of design to see play out.

    That being said, my ideal would be have Yoshi P come in and fix the spec but that ain't happening :P

  18. #58
    step 1) remove holy combo points,
    step 2) go back to a LK model
    step 3) have fun
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  19. #59
    I thought Paladins were in a good spot in Cataclysm personally. All specs.

  20. #60
    Some thoughts I've had in respect to what ppl have been saying

    Holy, Prot and Ret should be a bit more streamlined so that they all play in a similar fashion, but only a few key things make them varied from one another besides function ( atm that means making crusader strike more of the go to spell for holy to use than shock or casting holy light )

    All the warlocks for example use the same mechanic of generating soulstones via "shadow" bolts, then what they use it for distinguishes them. So all the paladins should EITHER have holypower back, OR have a key powerful spell that has X charges and is refreshed when you continuously judge/crusader strike. Maybe holy's spells are slow but powerful, but cast times are cut down as they melee, making it optional yet challenging to play that way. Prot melee's to reset shield charges and ret is keeping holypower atm just because it fits with the "crusader strike then whomp with a finisher,(yet not making so you can unload right away with a powerful attack like in Wotlk)

    Any old iterations of blessings, seals, auras or spells like exorcism and hammer of wrath should never return. I know everyone is nostalgic about them, but if they for example focus on making judgement or execution sentence visually and mechanically impactful, a return of hammer of wrath would be redundant. I don't think we should encourage redundancy or "filling" our spell bars.
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2017-08-02 at 04:13 AM. Reason: clerical editing

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