Disc for the next exp.

[schwank05]

Or git good and do a good job healing WITH managing atonements

The problem with that is, that is all you do is put fucking atonement's up on people, you don't have time to actually enjoy the DPS aspect of the spec, I want more than to focus on keeping Atonement on people.

Holy was just much more Mana friendly and 100% easier for better Output.

[Nurasu]

for better Output.

This is not true. You and others need to stop perpetuating it. Also Mists atonement was literally braindead, there was 0 thought and 0 effort which is the only other model I can think of where you don't have to manage atonement buffs. WoD tried making it "dumb" and it failed spectacularly.

[Deleted]

The problem with that is, that is all you do is put fucking atonement's up on people, you don't have time to actually enjoy the DPS aspect of the spec, I want more than to focus on keeping Atonement on people.

Holy was just much more Mana friendly and 100% easier for better Output.

If you are playing the class with the mentality that the dps side of it is of any importance then you are fundamentally misunderstanding it, the only aspect of dps is that you need your spells to hit a target to translate to healing, damage done, actual dps numbers, and any standard dps rotation are not relevant in raids.

Also you don't focus on keeping atonements on people, you place atonements on the right people at the right time and weave between keeping them up and healing via damage, spamming atonements randomly while trying to enjoy the dps aspect of disc will likely never result in a good performance.

[theburned]

In a certain way, I like the idea of having certain classes that bring something very desirable to raids. A lot of classes can occasionally feel very dispensable... replaceable. One nice thing about disc priests was that you could play one and it would help you get into raids, perhaps more than playing another class, perhaps even if you weren't a great player. Disc was a home for people who wanted to play a "needed" class. Additionally, it was evident when a good disc priest was in the raid - it made a big difference. Feeling like you make an impact in the raid - that you are important and that your contribution really matters - this is also a big thing. I don't care to argue about whether or not old disc was good or bad, but I understand the sentiments that some people might feel towards it. I feel the same way about BC Shadow - although the DPS wasn't the best, I felt like I really contributed to the raid, and I enjoyed people being happy to have me in the raid with them.

But new disc also has this, when you have a great disc in the raid they contribute massively and does a great bunch of free damage, while providing nice DR, shields and throughput through burst

[Memento1]

The problem with that is, that is all you do is put fucking atonement's up on people, you don't have time to actually enjoy the DPS aspect of the spec, I want more than to focus on keeping Atonement on people.

Holy was just much more Mana friendly and 100% easier for better Output.

The spec is built on balancing healing / atonement application and dps. In terms of spell usage, it's remarkably spot-on in this aspect. I looked at a recent Heroic Sisters log of mine: I cast 101 dps spells (smite, penance, PtW, Light's Wrath, Shadowfiend), and 98 healing/atonement spells (plea, shield, radiance, shadowmend). In terms of time spent, the disparity favors dps, since plea and shield are instant. So putting atonements on people is not all you do, in fact it's less than half of what you do.

Holy is easier because PoM, PoH, Sanctify, Binding Heal, and Divine Hymn all are at least partially passive - the game selects injured targets for you. MoP Disc was easy because you didn't have to select any targets at all for atonement - just blindly dps and the game will heal the most injured target for you. It's fine if you prefer things that are easy, but you haven't made the case that only easy is fun, and Blizzard should only make specs easy.

[Ilfayt]

Absorbs are not coming back. It is an impossible to balance mechanic, they are either useless or OP and required.



I dunno, with the way Disc works an AoE spell seems to be insane OP. Imagine doing all that damage you do from AoE in healing on every target with attonement.
The only way i would see it work if it doesn't heal attonement targets.

Could have a built in reduced Attonement effect on it. Say it only transfers 30% the normal amount of attonement healing.

[Deleted]

in an ideal world disc has 21 good talents with a subset that supports a balanced and fun absorption heavy play style

in reality blizzard develops this game

[Memento1]

There is no such thing as a balanced absorb healer. Your ideal world is one in which you are happy and other healers are angry.

[Kilee25]

But new disc also has this, when you have a great disc in the raid they contribute massively and does a great bunch of free damage, while providing nice DR, shields and throughput through burst

I am not entirely sure if the effect is the same as what I was talking about. A "great" player's contribution is noticed no matter what class they play, but it is generally more to do with the player being good than the class they are playing. I think this is more what you are talking about than what I was talking about. I was referring to a class being indispensable almost in spite of the player playing it.

A crude example would be something like taking a druid so that you can have a combat resurrection in your raid, regardless of whether or not the person behind the druid excels in the aspects of their role, or rather that they are merely average, and at best can manage to not stand in the fire.

Another perhaps brute force example would be back in the old days when it took forever to get to dungeons, and people would take warlocks to bring summons to the raid, and that ability would be enough to help them get a spot in groups.

If we use that definition, and you feel that disc priest still fits that role, then yes we are talking about the same thing.

[theburned]

I am not entirely sure if the effect is the same as what I was talking about. A "great" player's contribution is noticed no matter what class they play, but it is generally more to do with the player being good than the class they are playing. I think this is more what you are talking about than what I was talking about. I was referring to a class being indispensable almost in spite of the player playing it.

A crude example would be something like taking a druid so that you can have a combat resurrection in your raid, regardless of whether or not the person behind the druid excels in the aspects of their role, or rather that they are merely average, and at best can manage to not stand in the fire.

Another perhaps brute force example would be back in the old days when it took forever to get to dungeons, and people would take warlocks to bring summons to the raid, and that ability would be enough to help them get a spot in groups.

If we use that definition, and you feel that disc priest still fits that role, then yes we are talking about the same thing.

We are talking about the same thing, because a disc with good timing will just throw in so much healing that health bars doesnt even move, while also being able to stabalize raid hp with rapture, just done so much shit on my disc that my druid would never be able to do. The healing you get from disc is just insanely good with the one downside that if you have to do reactionary healing you are fucked.

[Supliftz]

in an ideal world disc has 21 good talents with a subset that supports a balanced and fun absorption heavy play style

in reality blizzard develops this game

"Fun"

"absorption heavy playstyle"

these two things cannot exist together

[Deleted]

i think blizzard is incapable of and unwilling to go to the lengths necessary to make those two things coexist and i wouldn't even say it's something worth exploring at this point but saying it's outright impossible i don't agree with

[schwank05]

The spec is built on balancing healing / atonement application and dps. In terms of spell usage, it's remarkably spot-on in this aspect. I looked at a recent Heroic Sisters log of mine: I cast 101 dps spells (smite, penance, PtW, Light's Wrath, Shadowfiend), and 98 healing/atonement spells (plea, shield, radiance, shadowmend). In terms of time spent, the disparity favors dps, since plea and shield are instant. So putting atonements on people is not all you do, in fact it's less than half of what you do.

Holy is easier because PoM, PoH, Sanctify, Binding Heal, and Divine Hymn all are at least partially passive - the game selects injured targets for you. MoP Disc was easy because you didn't have to select any targets at all for atonement - just blindly dps and the game will heal the most injured target for you. It's fine if you prefer things that are easy, but you haven't made the case that only easy is fun, and Blizzard should only make specs easy.

Then I will make that case, I was a harcore Druid healer in Wrath and CATA, then they decided they wanted to us to cast heals, Fuck that I loved topping meters while jumping around throwing out Rejuv's on the entire 25 man raid. I loved MOP Disc because you literally got to mindlessly dps the boss and feel like you are contributing because I would actually out DPS some of the Tanks and shit dps in a raid and also top healing meters.

I should also point out that I have not been subbed since December so have no real clue how the game is now, but back then Disc was worthless because mana management was awful and Holy was easier and much more mana efficient also better at raid healing which I prefer. I also despise mythic and think there should only be one Difficulty with activated hard modes not the same shit on 4 different difficulties.

[MendUS]

Then I will make that case, I was a harcore Druid healer in Wrath and CATA, then they decided they wanted to us to cast heals, Fuck that I loved topping meters while jumping around throwing out Rejuv's on the entire 25 man raid. I loved MOP Disc because you literally got to mindlessly dps the boss and feel like you are contributing because I would actually out DPS some of the Tanks and shit dps in a raid and also top healing meters.

I should also point out that I have not been subbed since December so have no real clue how the game is now, but back then Disc was worthless because mana management was awful and Holy was easier and much more mana efficient also better at raid healing which I prefer. I also despise mythic and think there should only be one Difficulty with activated hard modes not the same shit on 4 different difficulties.

This definitely sits between the line of meme and actual opinion, well done sir.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I loved MOP Disc because you literally got to mindlessly dps the boss and feel like you are contributing because I would actually out DPS some of the Tanks and shit dps in a raid and also top healing meters.

See, this is exactly the reason why I prefer disc in its current iteration. Let's see...

I played disc in WotLK (when I actually started playing WoW); I skipped Cata, then played MoP as a disc priest, always healing in raids. By the last months of MoP I started learning holy too because disc was efficient yet boring; then I continued playing WoD, always as a healer, but now switching between disc and holy.

The very reason why disc priests were so efficient during MoP - "mindlessly dps the boss [...] and also top healing meters" - are exactly the reasons why I myself don't want disc to be like that again. During the first tier of MoP anyone, and I mean anyone playing disc could "mindlessly dps the boss" and do double the "healing" of any other healing class. I'm not being hyperbolic here; disc priests were really topping the meters during MoP's first raid tier by a ridiculous margin, *double* the heal of any other healer. Ask any disc priest who played at that time.

Was disc effective as a healer during MoP? Yes it was. Of COURSE it was. It had strong smart heals attached to dps and a very strong absoption cd (Spirit Shell) with only 1 min cooldown. You could put that spec in the hands of someone who never actually played as a healer (having to think in terms of triage and so on) and just let the guy "mindlessly dps the boss", and he/she would still compete with healers that actually knew what they were doing.
Do I miss that playstyle? Heck no, it was boring. That was the reason this spec was nerfed several times during MoP but never got balanced; exactly because it's impossible to balance a healer where 3/4 or more of his "healing" comes from damage absorbing effects, and the rest comes from just "mindlessly dps the boss" while other healers had to actually triage and think through what they were doing.

I played MoP as a disc priest, healing that entire expansion with that spec. And I don't want it back. I'm glad they changed it, and I wholeheartedly hope they never change it back to an "absorption healer". Things are much more fun now; disc actually requires some skill to be played properly. Holy is versatile without the bogus chakra mechanics. I'm loving both specs and playing both.

[Kilee25]

The very reason why disc priests were so efficient during MoP - "mindlessly dps the boss [...] and also top healing meters" - are exactly the reasons why I myself don't want disc to be like that again.

While I appreciate your opinion, and I understand it. I'd like you to understand that it's opinions like that which are pushing out and alienating a lot of the more casual player base from the game. If that's what you want to happen, then okay. But understand that there are a lot of people out there who don't want an extreme challenge from the game, and instead just want a class they can play while hanging out with their friends and having fun. As I see it, the game has been moving away from being approachable to the casual player base for several years now, and it's players with opinions like yours that are slowly turning every spec into an "enthusiast challenge". Perhaps the game simply doesn't have room for both mindsets, but this notion that every class and spec has to be extremely complex and challenging to play, else it's labeled as "boring"... well if you just keep taking that line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, you basically continuously push out a large group of players, until you're left with a game with a much smaller player base.

I truly feel that there needs to be a few classes that are easier to play. You can call it mindless or boring or whatever you want, but the point is that Disc at certain points in its history was one of those classes, and now it's not. And I think that's the crux of the discussion. There are a group of players who enjoyed Disc because it allowed them to participate in areas of the game that they might not have otherwise been able to. They were essentially "run off" at the start of this expansion because the class changed, but they would come back if there were a similar option available. As I see it, Holy is more or less the only recourse in the priest spec options for players who didn't or couldn't escalate their game play. (Either that, or just change classes.) I suspect there are a lot of players who are silently (or otherwise) hoping that there will be a return to some of the old versions of the spec.

I want to clarify that I personally don't care much one way or another what happens. I just want to add some clarity to the discussion.

[MendUS]

While I appreciate your opinion, and I understand it. I'd like you to understand that it's opinions like that which are pushing out and alienating a lot of the more casual player base from the game. If that's what you want to happen, then okay. But understand that there are a lot of people out there who don't want an extreme challenge from the game, and instead just want a class they can play while hanging out with their friends and having fun. As I see it, the game has been moving away from being approachable to the casual player base for several years now, and it's players with opinions like yours that are slowly turning every spec into an "enthusiast challenge". Perhaps the game simply doesn't have room for both mindsets, but this notion that every class and spec has to be extremely complex and challenging to play, else it's labeled as "boring"... well if you just keep taking that line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, you basically continuously push out a large group of players, until you're left with a game with a much smaller player base.

I truly feel that there needs to be a few classes that are easier to play. You can call it mindless or boring or whatever you want, but the point is that Disc at certain points in its history was one of those classes, and now it's not. And I think that's the crux of the discussion. There are a group of players who enjoyed Disc because it allowed them to participate in areas of the game that they might not have otherwise been able to. They were essentially "run off" at the start of this expansion because the class changed, but they would come back if there were a similar option available. As I see it, Holy is more or less the only recourse in the priest spec options for players who didn't or couldn't escalate their game play. (Either that, or just change classes.) I suspect there are a lot of players who are silently (or otherwise) hoping that there will be a return to some of the old versions of the spec.

I want to clarify that I personally don't care much one way or another what happens. I just want to add some clarity to the discussion.

I think that Discipline is really the only spec right now that is actually moderately challenging. I think people who enjoy current Disc take issue when people who don't enjoy it demand it to be changed back to something objectively mindless to play. The point here is: there are other healing spec's that are easier for casual players to pick up and learn. If Discipline is too challenging, play HPriest or another healing spec instead.

[Kilee25]

I think that Discipline is really the only spec right now that is actually moderately challenging. I think people who enjoy current Disc take issue when people who don't enjoy it demand it to be changed back to something objectively mindless to play. The point here is: there are other healing spec's that are easier for casual players to pick up and learn. If Discipline is too challenging, play HPriest or another healing spec instead.

I agree, I just want everyone to understand that too.

Edit: Also, please understand also that everyone's definition of challenging is very subjective. Your perception that disc is only "moderately" challenging and every other class is boringly easy, might not apply to everyone...

[Grumpy Old Man]

While I appreciate your opinion, and I understand it. I'd like you to understand that it's opinions like that which are pushing out and alienating a lot of the more casual player base from the game. If that's what you want to happen, then okay. But understand that there are a lot of people out there who don't want an extreme challenge from the game, and instead just want a class they can play while hanging out with their friends and having fun. As I see it, the game has been moving away from being approachable to the casual player base for several years now, and it's players with opinions like yours that are slowly turning every spec into an "enthusiast challenge". Perhaps the game simply doesn't have room for both mindsets, but this notion that every class and spec has to be extremely complex and challenging to play, else it's labeled as "boring"... well if you just keep taking that line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, you basically continuously push out a large group of players, until you're left with a game with a much smaller player base.

I truly feel that there needs to be a few classes that are easier to play. You can call it mindless or boring or whatever you want, but the point is that Disc at certain points in its history was one of those classes, and now it's not. And I think that's the crux of the discussion. There are a group of players who enjoyed Disc because it allowed them to participate in areas of the game that they might not have otherwise been able to. They were essentially "run off" at the start of this expansion because the class changed, but they would come back if there were a similar option available. As I see it, Holy is more or less the only recourse in the priest spec options for players who didn't or couldn't escalate their game play. (Either that, or just change classes.) I suspect there are a lot of players who are silently (or otherwise) hoping that there will be a return to some of the old versions of the spec.

I want to clarify that I personally don't care much one way or another what happens. I just want to add some clarity to the discussion.

But we do have specs that are easier to play. In some cases you have in the same class specs that appeal to both sets of players - the one that wants a challenge and the one that wants an easier playstyle. Heck, I myself am a casual player. During MoP (which I mostly played as a disc priest, as I've stated) I just did normal mode raids. Nowadays I just do heroic mode raids. The rest of the time I do some mythics+, and I didn't even got the achievement for a +15 mythic yet.

I think I understand your point, and I think the game is already there - we have some easier to play specs, some harder ones.

About the disc spec changing - my point is that was inevitable. Blizzard tried for 2 expansions to keep balanced a healer which most of its "healing" was actually absorbs. That playstyle couldn't last. It had to change. And when it changed, of course players would feel alienated. But that change just had to happen.

Could the current iteration of disc be easier to play? Maybe. Maybe thru the talent system it could have its difficult level adjusted. Should the current iteration of disc be easier to play? That's a matter of personal opinion, I'd say.
Should disc go back to be a full damage absorption healer? The answer to this question may be in the realm of personal opinion and taste. I personally think we can't have a full damage absorption healer in the game because of the reasons I already said.

Back to your other point; yes I do agree the game needs some specs that are easier to play, I agree the game can offer content to both players who do want challenge and casual players. And I actually think we're already there. I think the game successfully managed to do both in its current iteration. It's just the disc priest spec that had to change (IMHO). And I understand some people feeling lost in that change, but I still think that particular change needed to happen.

[Deleted]

it's opinions like that which are pushing out and alienating a lot of the more casual player base from the game. If that's what you want to happen, then okay.

I don't now your definition of a casual player, but I would consider myself a casual player and enjoy a challenge more than being bored by easy rotations and toothless enemies.
I don't have the time to participate in a mythic Raid, but I liked the mage challenges a lot and I think a lo of casual players are quitting, because the world content is too trivial and there aren't enough challegenges for player, who don't have the time for serious raiding. I understand, that some players don't want challenge after a long work day, but I don't like the association that all casual player hate challenges.

And I think, the Mop Disc was way too overpowered. You argue, that it was fun for the Disc Players, but you forget, that fotm classes diminish the fun of the other players.
For me the Cata Disc was the most fun. Atonment healing was great for little incoming dmg, helping out with some dps and preparing for the use of archangel.
Rapture Tracking was nice for mana manegement. Inner Fokus + Prayer of healing was used to pre shield with aegis, while archangel and prayer of healing was used for reactive group healing. Heal/Greater Heal/Flash Heal had a synergie with PW:S, because it lowered the cd of waekend soul, and kept Grace ans Inspiration (+armor) active. Power Word Barrier, Pain Supression and Voidshift were nice tools who made up for you lower group heal compared to druids, holy priests or shamans.

The actual Disc is interesting in the beginning, but I think it gets quite boring after a while. It might be different in mythic, but in heroic pugs you put atonment on everyone, use LightsWrath/Penance after the big dmg income and you're hps are skyrocketing. Sometimes, it feels a little bit cheap, but it's an improvement compared to Mop.

(Sorry for my bad english)