Let's talk Light Brewing vs Black Ox Brew

[keqe]

Yes, BoB over LB will give you enough dps to kill boss a whole 5 seconds earlier, seriously? You need much bigger increase to cut 5 seconds of a fight with overall ~13 mil raid dps.

You were quoting about HT for sisters and that is what I talked about.

But BoB probably together with BoC gives substantial DPS increase in form of actually being able to sustain optimal rotation.

[ReD-EyeD]

You were quoting about HT for sisters and that is what I talked about.

But BoB probably together with BoC gives substantial DPS increase in form of actually being able to sustain optimal rotation.

Pretty sure BoC alone here plays 99% of the damage increase.

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Having 30% haste is a nerf in itself, so this entire situation is less than optimal. Get good stats instead of 5 milion haste and use BoB, what's the problem?

We're talking about post nerf ISB where you can't spam BOB for free for unlimited brew duration. It was obviously superior there. Also HT haste got buffed too slightly.

[Swalload]

What I'm saying is if you need 30% haste to make LB better than BoB, it means you need to nerf yourself by dumping good stats in order to get more haste just to make LB a better choice than BoB instead of stacking good stats and keeping BoB, resulting in being far stronger with BoB than with LB.
And the gap in power becomes even greater if you need to lose BoC to get the lesser efficient talent HT in order to reach that haste.

[Deleted]

We're talking about post nerf ISB where you can't spam BOB for free for unlimited brew duration. It was obviously superior there. Also HT haste got buffed too slightly.

Does that really change anything in your calculation? If you want more brews, they are obviously for more purifies. With BoB you can control when to do them. With LB you have to take them, when you get them.

[PinDrop]

Does that really change anything in your calculation? If you want more brews, they are obviously for more purifies. With BoB you can control when to do them. With LB you have to take them, when you get them.

With LB you can have 2-3 brews in reserve to use on demand rather than 1-2. Easier to use for periodic spikes in damage, which is what bosses do.
With BoB you have an awkward 3 charges dumped in, and you will waste some brew CD or overcap energy, unless BoB comes off CD the exact instant you need it while you are at 0 brews. The longer you hold BoB for times when it is needed, the closer it gets to LB in terms of brewgen.
In terms of raw brew generation BoB has always been mathed out to be superior, but in a time where we can no longer put all of those brews to good use because of ISB cap, having brews when we need them will do more for our survival.

That said, I run BoB because I need the energy for my BoC rotation, but I am starting Mythics this week and I will probably be running HT until I and my new healers are comfortable, which means I will be trying out GotM or LB and seeing what works better. I ran LB awhile back and was pleasantly surprised at how flexible the brews were, but the energy starvation brought me crawling back to BoB because I'm a triple TP relic parselord, so I'll have to see how it goes.

[ReD-EyeD]

With LB you can have 2-3 brews in reserve to use on demand rather than 1-2. Easier to use for periodic spikes in damage, which is what bosses do.
With BoB you have an awkward 3 charges dumped in, and you will waste some brew CD or overcap energy, unless BoB comes off CD the exact instant you need it while you are at 0 brews. The longer you hold BoB for times when it is needed, the closer it gets to LB in terms of brewgen.
In terms of raw brew generation BoB has always been mathed out to be superior, but in a time where we can no longer put all of those brews to good use because of ISB cap, having brews when we need them will do more for our survival.

That said, I run BoB because I need the energy for my BoC rotation, but I am starting Mythics this week and I will probably be running HT until I and my new healers are comfortable, which means I will be trying out GotM or LB and seeing what works better. I ran LB awhile back and was pleasantly surprised at how flexible the brews were, but the energy starvation brought me crawling back to BoB because I'm a triple TP relic parselord, so I'll have to see how it goes.

Thank for posting exactly what I was going to say. The part about triple face palm relic is also very important here.

[PinDrop]

Thank for posting exactly what I was going to say. The part about triple face palm relic is also very important here.

I mean, even without triple FP relics, you are going to energy starve running BoC without BoB, so not sure 'how' it's important. If you energy starve you are doing less damage than you could be, and generating less brews through KS or TP then you could be.

[ReD-EyeD]

I mean, even without triple FP relics, you are going to energy starve running BoC without BoB, so not sure 'how' it's important. If you energy starve you are doing less damage than you could be, and generating less brews through KS or TP then you could be.

Yes, you're right, but I meant that the importance of energy efficiency goes much higher the more FP relics you have.

[Tech614]

I care not what the math is. Using BOB is clunky as hell after getting a cap put on ISB duration, so I use LB for now and it feels a lot smoother and natural. Probably playing inferior, but by such a small % I really don't care. Energy is definitely not an issue when running HT and tanking mythic bosses and constantly being in red stagger.

When I want to parse lord and run BoC? Yea, I'll probably use BoB then.

[keqe]

BoB is quite good defensively on later bosses too. On Avatar mythic maiden doesn't really do much to you. You dodge almost everything so you can just IsB up during those moments. During avatar those purifies are more useful in form of reducing desolate/soak stagger. BoB allows you to "load" your brew generation to that specific half of the fight.

On KJ BoB is godlike as you get it for every felclaw allowing you to purify like crazy.

[Tech614]

I already can bank 3 purifies for every Felclaw with LB. I always have 1-2(if 1 a 2nd is coming off cd very soon) purified for every desolate.

Those are hardly great examples that put BoB ahead defensively. HT and LB synergize too well with each other, just like BoB and BoC do.

[keqe]

With BoB you don't have to sacrifice brew usage somewhere else. Untalented brew generation and management is good enough for regular situations. It is much more effective to have that burst in places where it matters.

If you bank 3 purifies on KJ you sacrificed brew usage before that point. With BoB you don't have to while you can have 4-5 purifies if needed.

[Tech614]

If you bank 3 purifies on KJ you sacrificed brew usage before that point.

Yea let me know all those brews I sacrificed while not tanking the boss You literally just pop ISB on cd while not tanking and under cap, you always start tanking the boss with 20+ seconds on ISB and the vast majority of your brews while tanking go to purify.

If you're saving BoB for felclaws guess what... you just sacrificed brew usage.

I don't think you realize how fast your brews come off CD with HT and LB. Not to mention being able to bank 3 brews while not wasting any potential brews. Especially on a boss like KJ that puts you into red stagger with single melee hits. Actually play it and get back to me. It's clearly you're just trying to go off perfect theorized math but in the heat of the moment it's hard to get perfect play with BoB in a world with ISB duration cap. There is a reason most of the top brewmasters are gravitating to LB/HT for progression.

[keqe]

Yea let me know all those brews I sacrificed while not tanking the boss You literally just pop ISB on cd while not tanking and under cap, you always start tanking the boss with 20+ seconds on ISB and the vast majority of your brews while tanking go to purify.

If you're saving BoB for felclaws guess what... you just sacrificed brew usage.

I don't think you realize how fast your brews come off CD with HT and LB. Not to mention being able to bank 3 brews while not wasting any potential brews. Especially on a boss like KJ that puts you into red stagger with single melee hits. Actually play it and get back to me. It's clearly you're just trying to go off perfect theorized math but in the heat of the moment it's hard to get perfect play with BoB in a world with ISB duration cap. There is a reason most of the top brewmasters are gravitating to LB/HT for progression.

The fact you can get IsB stacked while not tanking makes BoB even better in that situation. You can taunt boss with 20+s of IsB and do multiple purifies for auto attacks while also purifying like crazy for felclaws.

With LB you can't purify those auto attacks as much. Not a big deal to be fair but still. Also BoB doesn't really go waste in that fight because it comes out of CD about every 40s which is the interval for your felclaws.

[Deleted]

There is a reason most of the top brewmasters are gravitating to LB/HT for progression.

Not sure where you get your data from, but on FA of the 4 publicly logged kills: 3 HT, 1 ED and 3 BoB and 1 LB. If you only take the HT examples it is still 2 times BoB and LB once. On Maiden it is 14:1 in favor of BoB, 13:1 if you exclude the kill logged with BoC. On Mistress it is 30:2, 17:1 if you exclude ED and BoC logs. So popularity wise BoB definitely wins on the high end of progression.

[ReD-EyeD]

Keep in mind that all math about BOB comes with BOB being used exactly on cd and this happens pretty much never if you care about proper charges utilization.

[keqe]

Keep in mind that all math about BOB comes with BOB being used exactly on cd and this happens pretty much never if you care about proper charges utilization.

Unless you want to save it for something (like KJ but even there it lines up pretty well without waste) you can use BoB without wasting charges quite well. 24s IsB cap is still quite enough of buffer room to manage BoB. You just have to not have 16+ seconds of IsB before BoB comes off CD.

[PinDrop]

You just have to not have 16+ seconds of IsB before BoB comes off CD.

So either sit on charges or purify low stagger. Either way, brews get wasted. LB lets you pool charges a little easier, BoB gives you more brews overall with a clunkier usage and more prep/forethought needed. Neither is perfect, everyone should use what works for them, and as long as the boss dies and they don't, we can all go out for a beer.

[Raiz]

So either sit on charges or purify low stagger. Either way, brews get wasted. LB lets you pool charges a little easier, BoB gives you more brews overall with a clunkier usage and more prep/forethought needed. Neither is perfect, everyone should use what works for them, and as long as the boss dies and they don't, we can all go out for a beer.

Amen ! cheers bro !

[antico]

I feel like this is a bit of a apples vs oranges discussion

sure, you will get more bang for your buck with black ox brew, but that doesn't mean you should avoid light brewing, at all cost, it's a good beginner's talent, I've used it myself while leveling in legion, and I've been playing the spec since late mop, just to get a feel for the new system, before I switched over to black ox brew for the end game

I guess a quote from our class mount would be pretty appropriate here.

The wise monk chooses their own style, rather than letting popular opinion dictate it.