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  1. #161
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Meanwhile I have 2 charges on a 17 sec cd and heroic leap on a 30 so c cd with a mini sprint attached and feeling great.
    Also, if you need to delete adds, then arms is your choice.
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  2. #162
    I cri everytime ;A;

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Meanwhile I have 2 charges on a 17 sec cd
    Mutually exclusive with any given semblance of stun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    and heroic leap on a 30 so c cd with a mini sprint attached and feeling great.
    Mutually exclusive with any given semblance of added defensive capability

    Look, I'm not trying to say that Arms is worse than Ret. Parses and data are pretty clear, and I'm all for people enjoying new classes.
    But Arms and Ret simply cannot be compared. Similarities start and end with the fact that both specs use twohanders.
    Last edited by iFool; 2017-08-11 at 11:15 PM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    20, mutually exclusive with any given semblance of stun.
    Mutually exclusive with any given semblance of added defensive capability

    Look, I'm not trying to say that Arms is worse than Ret. Parses and data are pretty clear, and I'm all for people enjoying new classes.
    But Arms and Ret simply cannot be compared. Similarities start and end with the fact that both specs use twohanders.
    -cough- look at this Colossus Smash button.. i mean Judgment!!!!!

    Trolling aside here are the comparisons.

    -Similar Primary Damage Mechanic
    -Similar Mastery

    We rely on Holy Power where as the Arms needs Rage. We kinda took the Arms dps mechanic but for us it wasnt as fleshed out given the hindrance of Holy Power itself and how Mastery scales.

    A reliable bandaid fix would be the following
    -Buff mastery a ton
    -Buff Judgment damage a ton
    -Give us a talent option somewhere like Titanic Might but instead for Judgment: Lower CD and Longer Duration.
    --Other talents need rework.

    However the trolling started because of the fact we were supposed to get a Leap/Charge ability, we see this in various Paladin NPC's being able to use it and not us. Hell the new mech we can pilot can use "Crusader Leap" if thats any indication.

  5. #165
    Guess there's mechas in Argus for whatever reason, we Starcraft now bois!

    Anway, by playing both Ret and Arms I could say that all Rets really need is numbers or another spender not named Templar's Verdict.
    The interaction between spenders and Blade of Justice is great, it makes the packed Ret kit play better than Arms has in the past years, although Arms can pull higher numbers.

    Ret is way smoother just due to how the whole kit has a synergistic nature to itself. The simplest fix would be to get rid of the dumb people-die-and-me-stronk passive and have the entirety of the spec's damage upped by whatever%.

    Then again it's hard to put into perspective how much a good Ret can keep a group alive in any content that's not world first progression raids, cutting edge or so. The sheer utility of the class would somehow have to tip the scale against the total output, or be offset somewhere else in the kit, as unfun as it may be.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    Anway, by playing both Ret and Arms I could say that all Rets really need is numbers or another spender not named Templar's Verdict.
    The interaction between spenders and Blade of Justice is great, it makes the packed Ret kit play better than Arms has in the past years, although Arms can pull higher numbers.

    Ret is way smoother just due to how the whole kit has a synergistic nature to itself. The simplest fix would be to get rid of the dumb people-die-and-me-stronk passive and have the entirety of the spec's damage upped by whatever%.
    I'm guessing you never played Ret in MoP. Played way better then even with just TV and DS.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    Then again it's hard to put into perspective how much a good Ret can keep a group alive in any content that's not world first progression raids, cutting edge or so. The sheer utility of the class would somehow have to tip the scale against the total output, or be offset somewhere else in the kit, as unfun as it may be.
    It's hard to put into perspective because they don't. Ret healing is nothing compared to what it used to be. Utility was gimped as well. Skill ceiling was completely flattened due to the removal of seals and making judging ranged targets an inherent dps loss.

  7. #167
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    Mutually exclusive with any given semblance of stun.
    Mutually exclusive with any given semblance of added defensive capability

    Look, I'm not trying to say that Arms is worse than Ret. Parses and data are pretty clear, and I'm all for people enjoying new classes.
    But Arms and Ret simply cannot be compared. Similarities start and end with the fact that both specs use twohanders.
    Which is good.
    Because I can choose to either enhance my a) mobility b) cc c) defence.
    I have options. I have actual choices.
    Of course they can't be compared. One is great, the other is not.
    One has actual viable different types of builds for different setups of gear and different encounters.
    The other does not.
    Look, I'm saying arms is better by a mile, because it is better no matter how you slice it.
    Last edited by Storm the Sorrow; 2017-08-12 at 02:54 AM. Reason: The Heavy _-_ What makes a good man
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  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    I'm guessing you never played Ret in MoP. Played way better then even with just TV and DS.
    Admittedly no, I didn't. Tried my hand at it a little, but it was a little too clunky to my tastes.
    Was way too busy watching the inevitable downfall of Arms, rediscovering Fury and playing a Monk. Which was nuts, the MoP Monk was a thing of beauty.
    I did play a fair bit of Ret in WoD, and enjoyed the synergy with the random DS proc. Sacred Seals was a lot of fun aswell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    It's hard to put into perspective because they don't. Ret healing is nothing compared to what it used to be. Utility was gimped as well. Skill ceiling was completely flattened due to the removal of seals and making judging ranged targets an inherent dps loss.
    I respectfully disagree.
    BoP is priceless during Necrotic weeks, Wisdom is kind of nice to have although healers are bound to overgear the need for such blessing.
    Kings is a waste of space in my bars but what can you do.

    And Ret healing is indeed a glimpse of what it was, but it's strong. I can't speak for other hybrids than Monk, Druid and Ret, but out of the three Ret's is the strongest.

    I agree it's been better, but it's not all that weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Which is good.
    Because I can choose to either enhance my a) mobility b) cc c) defence.
    I have options. I have actual choices.
    Of course they can't be compared. One is great, the other is not.
    One has actual viable different types of builds for different setups of gear and different encounters.
    The other does not.
    Look, I'm saying arms is better by a mile, because it is better no matter how you slice it.
    No class should be forced to choose between having mobility or cc or defense, given the current state of the game.
    And Arms has no real choice to be had. FoB Trauma is crap, and once you get your bis you're kind of pigeonholed into Ravager.

    Arms is better just by nature of numbers. It hits harder, it does better.
    That's all there is to it, and due to this fact, to me, the possible fixes to Ret are really simple: you take the current damage and bring it up.

    But Arms is not better by design. The things you can do outside your allotted box as a Ret are way more than what you're left with as a Warrior.
    Although I concede that both specs have to pay flavor with gameplay, given their history.
    Last edited by iFool; 2017-08-12 at 08:01 AM.

  9. #169
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    Arms feels free. Ret doesn't because of cd limits and Holypower.
    It's high noon.
    Personality: INTJ

  10. #170
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post

    And Ret healing is indeed a glimpse of what it was, but it's strong. I can't speak for other hybrids than Monk, Druid and Ret, but out of the three Ret's is the strongest.

    I agree it's been better, but it's not all that weak.
    Sure as sure, Theon Greyjoy levels of strong.
    As in , it lacks a certain part to be considered any good, moreso - strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post

    No class should be forced to choose between having mobility or cc or defense, given the current state of the game.
    Arms is not choosing between.
    Arms is choosing what to enhance.
    That's the key difference point between Retribution and Arms.
    And what makes your point wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    And Arms has no real choice to be had. FoB Trauma is crap, and once you get your bis you're kind of pigeonholed into Ravager.
    No, you're not. There are a lot of more than decent logs with Opps instead of Ravager. It's more down to preference actually.
    Also, you might wish to enlighten yourself on the build used by one of the arms warriors on WF mythic KJ. He just deleted adds almost on his own, and it was glorious, and it was fun, and it actually exists as an option however gimmick it might be.
    Ret has none.

    No to mention Class ring allows for old FR build to work yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post

    Arms is better just by nature of numbers. It hits harder, it does better.
    No.
    Arms is just better, the only flaws of the spec are overdependance on autoattacks and kind of a huge dependance on Ayala.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    That's all there is to it, and due to this fact, to me, the possible fixes to Ret are really simple: you take the current damage and bring it up.
    Won't fix Ret being clunky as all feth, with no real synergy between resources and abilities, no actual combat mechanics, no actual mobility , etc etc yada yada.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    But Arms is not better by design. The things you can do outside your allotted box as a Ret are way more than what you're left with as a Warrior.
    Now that was a good one.
    I therefore rate it 3/10 and utter an "heh".
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  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    I therefore rate it 3/10 and utter an "heh".
    Quoting just this for simplicity:
    with the removal of Vigilance, Intervene, Charge Stun and Thunder Clap/ Piercing Howl, Arms has little to bring to the table.
    Whereas as Ret, Hands and Blessings are a gamechanger in most parts of the game. And this simply cannot be denied.

    Granted as I said, it seems to bring a payoff in performance.

    Now about the whole choosing.
    Let's imagine for a second you'd have to pick between Flash of Light and Shield of Vengeance. As a talent.
    Would you be happy? Let's imagine once more that you would. How would you, two spells in your base kit that you always had, spells that maybe allowed you to make a difference in any organized group content.
    Now you have to choose which one of the two you can have in your kit.

    See the point?
    There's talent rows that allow for Rets to enhance either its defensive, with Divine Intervention, or its mobility with Cavalier.
    Now, the row is imbalanced and 9/10 Divine Intervention is always the preferred choice. But then again the design across the board is there.

    And I'm sorry, but overdependance on autoattacks after all the Rage generators have been removed makes it so that the Warrior kit is badly outdated at this point, and keeps feeding into a number of problems that gets tackled almost every expansion to no avail, swinging from a scenario where you need to have Rage for Mortal Strike and do jack for five seconds, to another where Rage doesn't matter at all.
    That is an issue. And I'm alright with not filling every gcd if the design is adequately fleshed out, but there is no cohesive design in the current Arms kit aside from MS is king and the rest is nonexistant.
    A spec cannot be made reliant on a proc and call it a day. Thank god Titanic Might is viable now.

    About Method's Arms, I just about opened their armories. Both have helm, both play Ravager since it's nonsensical to do otherwise. None of them have Trauma, none of them have Fervor of Ballerina, one of them plays FR with Ayala's.
    Arms lives off Execute phase, as it was in WoD. And trust me, if Ret was pulling proper numbers we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    I understand the bitterness and the loss of love for one's favourite class and spec throughout the years, but there's no aggravating design flaw in Ret as of now, aside from the glaring lack of mobility and numbers.

    Due to these reasons Arms isn't the superior, better spec. It just flexes muscles better.
    It's a spec that's left to do one thing alone - damage. It doesn't have to pay for any utility, it doesn't soak, has no invulnerabilities, moves straight towards the target and bashes it in.

    EDIT:
    Please, wherever this conversation heads, don't make me started on Sweeping Strikes. I'm pedant and boring.

  12. #172
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Little to the table?
    Rallying Cry alone tramples all support abilities Ret has.
    And don't get me started on PvP, where Arms furiously molests Ret in all kinds of places with impeccable ruthlessness.
    Utility-wise included.

    Now about the whole choosing.
    Let's imagine for a second you'd have to pick between Flash of Light and Shield of Vengeance. As a talent.
    Would you be happy? Let's imagine once more that you would. How would you, two spells in your base kit that you always had, spells that maybe allowed you to make a difference in any organized group content.
    Now you have to choose which one of the two you can have in your kit.

    See the point?
    No.

    There's talent rows that allow for Rets to enhance either its defensive, with Divine Intervention, or its mobility with Cavalier.
    Now, the row is imbalanced and 9/10 Divine Intervention is always the preferred choice. But then again the design across the board is there.
    No, it's not there by any stretch.
    Cavalier is beyond awful JoL competes with DI and makes no sense as a talent to begin with not to mention it being a talent for all 3 paladin specs for no fething reason.
    The row is shite.

    And I'm sorry, but overdependance on autoattacks after all the Rage generators have been removed makes it so that the Warrior kit is badly outdated at this point
    Which is why I said Arms has an actual flaw. I do not parade it like some paragon of Flawlessness.

    About Method's Arms,
    You should check the kill video, I was speaking strictly about the build used for M KJ.

    And trust me, if Ret was pulling proper numbers we wouldn't be having this conversation.
    Gameplay maketh spec.
    Ret gameplay is bad, Arms is not.
    Ret is boring, Arms is not.
    Ret is weak in PvP, Arms is not.

    I understand the bitterness and the loss of love for one's favourite class and spec throughout the years, but there's no aggravating design flaw in Ret as of now, aside from the glaring lack of mobility and numbers.
    Or lack of choice.
    Or Holy Wrath still existing.
    or Ret being incredibly fething shite against any classs which can kite.
    Or Ret losing it's actual versatility.
    Or overabundance of fething awful solutions implemented unto Legion Ret despite our pleas when we had to fight for half a year by skin of our teeth to alleviate any of it(GBoM f.e.).

    Due to these reasons Arms isn't the superior, better spec. It just flexes muscles better.
    Oh, but it is.
    Superior burst, superior mobility, superior pvp utility, arguably better raid support due to Ralying Cry.

    Please, wherever this conversation heads, don't make me started on Sweeping Strikes. I'm pedant and boring.
    Sweeping Strikes is awesome , and so is it's interaction with 4pT20, and Executioners Precision.
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  13. #173
    Please no.

    Sweeping Strikes becoming a passive talent with a range so little I can piss farther is not awesome, good, passable, tolerable or any of these combinations.

    And about all the rest I respectfully disagree. I think we can agree on that. And on the fact that Ret needs buffs.

  14. #174
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Feth yes.

    Sweeping strikes may be however bad you deem to measure it, yet it's better than any passive retribution has ever had.
    Care to compare it to Final Verdict, for one?
    Which one has synergy with tier gear and artifact traits?
    Which one actually provides a slightly higher skill cap due to required situational and positional awareness?
    And which one is fething bland and awful and completely, literally, passive?

    Yet you call sweeping strikes bad. Your judgement may be somewhat skewed.

    Ah well. Agree to disagree. Sure as sure.
    We'll call it a draw.
    And no, retribution doesn't need buffs. It needs competent developers. Ones which are not supposedly competent, but actually competent, and unbiased at that.
    Yeah, I am asking for too much. Excuse me while I care about this shitstain of a spec.
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  15. #175
    No I totally understand where you're coming from. You probably guessed, but my go-to was Arms. For the longest time.
    Then WoD came, then the mandatory legendaries came, then FR came and went, and I really couldn't stomach it any longer. It's way too much stressful to me trying to enjoy what I always played but having to rely on devs to deliver on a semblance of plausible design.

    There was this most puzzling circumstance in which Celestalon promised the Warrior community answers, mostly due to the sorry state in which Arms versed.
    The answers never came, and Celestalon disappeared from the forums for a whole year.
    Only to try and pull the same trick with Brewmasters, who took none of his stuff and ultimately made him concede and admit fault.

    And I'll be honest with you: I'd take Divine Storm any day of the week. I love having a big fat Wake of Ashes into a couple Storms inside a pack of mobs, instead of having to tiptoe my way around just to see if i can cleave an Execute on somebody, hoping for Sweeping to do what it's supposed to since, I don't know, 2006?
    So yeah, I call it bad because I used to do decent stuff with Sweeping, before it became a talent in a row that's supposed to give me... uuuh... headaches. I guess.
    Because you will eventually outgear Dauntless, have no need for Overpower and you're eventually left with Sweeping.

    And I respectfully disagree on passives aswell: Eye for an Eye was awesome, for one!

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    No I totally understand where you're coming from. You probably guessed, but my go-to was Arms. For the longest time.
    Then WoD came, then the mandatory legendaries came, then FR came and went, and I really couldn't stomach it any longer. It's way too much stressful to me trying to enjoy what I always played but having to rely on devs to deliver on a semblance of plausible design.

    There was this most puzzling circumstance in which Celestalon promised the Warrior community answers, mostly due to the sorry state in which Arms versed.
    The answers never came, and Celestalon disappeared from the forums for a whole year.
    Only to try and pull the same trick with Brewmasters, who took none of his stuff and ultimately made him concede and admit fault.

    And I'll be honest with you: I'd take Divine Storm any day of the week. I love having a big fat Wake of Ashes into a couple Storms inside a pack of mobs, instead of having to tiptoe my way around just to see if i can cleave an Execute on somebody, hoping for Sweeping to do what it's supposed to since, I don't know, 2006?
    So yeah, I call it bad because I used to do decent stuff with Sweeping, before it became a talent in a row that's supposed to give me... uuuh... headaches. I guess.
    Because you will eventually outgear Dauntless, have no need for Overpower and you're eventually left with Sweeping.

    And I respectfully disagree on passives aswell: Eye for an Eye was awesome, for one!
    ur ret-enthusiasm is so green that its actually black. maybe u shouldnt rely on icy-veins (worse than bad).

    cuz: ret shares bottom with outlaw (!), not exclusivly due to numbers, but inconsistent design escalated via unbelievable stupid nerfs (Crusade nerf! justification was to "buff" DP attractivity? cuz Crusade was to powerful, DP wasnt and still isnt viable in progress. in consequence ret lost dps without being the OP #1 DPS spec... so y was crusade to powerful? cuz DP design is inconsistent, if they buff DP damage RNG will faceroll PvP, so they nerf crusade, hm? cuz, yeah, crusade is to powerful...) - means buffs wont fix inconsistent design. No responsible pl will ever choose Holy Wrath for group environment, no responsible ret will take BoW, ES, Cons, cuz they rnt just underpowerd, but also clunky:
    in comparison to MoP and WoD Retribution Legion is clunky due to HoPo waste (Liadrins, T-Sets etc), ES HoPo Costs, short Judgment window (inquisition feels so upper-class now).

    legion ret isnt even much more sustained (damage), ret still relies on burst damage (every wings ret damage explodes by 200-300k (930+)) with a groce reduced toolkit (Emancipate, LAotL etc), which where finalised with HW and DI nerf. .
    ret heal is just lol in comparision to WoD, WoG (huge dps sacrifice, JoL doesnt even equal ashbringer DS heal: so these r not viable options.
    Blessing Of Wisdom is not an argument 4 progress slot, better options r another sham, dru than ret if mana is issue. Neither is BoK, overall damage and mobility. but the player makes the difference? u havent tried outlaw (rogue desing aequivalent 2 ret), nor ret in (mythic) progress environment.

    ret is exclusivly viable with 4p t19/20.

    and i rlly like the idea of HW, sustained damage, love 37,5s AW, 4pT20 (T18 ftw), Legendaries like Liadrins, Nahtrezims, Class Ring (Thrayns is just a (BiS) passive). but buizzard reached 2 far with "class fantasy" (plate, where is my mobility, a retribution paladin is the vanguard, the spearhead breaking enemy lines to reach the ranges/heals) and got so inconsequent, that legion redesign became inconsistent. baseline (talent desing, menas without T-pieces and legs) its neither synergetic, nor redundant (ret is limited in talent choices, see above) at all.

    its bad design, missed and nerfed potential (not that ret was #1 DPS spec before).
    and me stills prefers ret over fury, outlaw/assa, frost/UH, havoc, fire/frost, ww... but there is no rational reason to do so.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    I respectfully disagree.
    BoP is priceless during Necrotic weeks, Wisdom is kind of nice to have although healers are bound to overgear the need for such blessing.
    Kings is a waste of space in my bars but what can you do.
    You know ret had a cleanse that removed magic in pve? A seal that could reliably slow anything you damaged with a melee attack with no cooldown? Hammer of the Righteous reduced physical damage dealt. Execution Sentence (Stay of Execution) could be used on an ally to heal them. Holy Prism and Light's Hammer were choosable by Ret. You could glyph Word of Glory to be a ranged finisher. We had a real defensive cooldown in Divine Protection (glyphed or otherwise). Flash of Light was a guaranteed crit on a trash mob killing blow. All our base Hand spells (which were renamed again to Blessings) could be talented to be used twice as often. Devotion Aura as a group magic defensive cooldown. Hand of Sacrifice and Hand of Purity.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    And Ret healing is indeed a glimpse of what it was, but it's strong. I can't speak for other hybrids than Monk, Druid and Ret, but out of the three Ret's is the strongest.
    That's really not saying much, and is beside the point. Ret was a viable offhealer while doing respectable damage, even when it wasn't just an "oh crap" moment. Word of Glory as it is feels limiting to use. Charges really suck to deal with on any healing ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    No class should be forced to choose between having mobility or cc or defense, given the current state of the game.And Arms has no real choice to be had.
    This is pretty delusional. Storm explains it well enough.

  18. #178
    Again, since the comparison was between Arms and Ret, that's where the point of the discussion was for me.
    Ret needs buff? Absolutely.
    But to me claiming that Arms is Ret but better holds no merit, and in this I agree to disagree with Storm.

    I know how Paladins were before. I played one extensively throughout BC and halfway through Wrath, stopping at around Ulduar to dedicate myself full time to my Warrior.
    I have a complete lack of knowledge on how Ret played in MoP, but I know how it was in WoD and how immobile it feels now.

    There's no need to list how it was before, because I know it. I know about Seal of Justice, Seal of the Crusader, deranking Seal of Command, how Judgement was out of the GCD, how important it was to have people full talent into Kings, to micromanage the procs of Art of War between Exorcism and FoL, all that jazz.

    But aside on how the kit had more depht before, and it can be said for almost every class and spec now, Ret and the Paladin in general has utility that a Warrior simply doesn't.

  19. #179
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Yeah right, (f)utility. Having a holy or prot paladin in your raid comp removes this point out of equation whatsoever, as they bring more of the same, yet better, and yet more still.
    Offhealing is nonexistent, so there it goes.
    Which leaves as with damage as the last measure of worthiness. Which Retribution lacks. Which, in turn, brings back same old question of why pick Ret.
    Hold in mind, all of the above was said in regards to dragonslaying.
    Now let's turn our gaze towards pvp. Would you still claim retribution utility is better in pvp? Retribution damage? Retribution offhealing, selfhealing, cc, mobility?
    Why pick ret?
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  20. #180
    I can't really speak anymore about PvP. The little I had with ret was playing Ret Rogue with a friend, which is always been a strong comp.
    And it's really a testament to nothing that we kind of steamrolled the session: sub1700 means nothing.
    That being said, Ret is strong in kill setups. It has some things that annoy me to no end and back, such as Judgement cleaving for no reason and breaking every Sap and Blind in history, but if needs be the frontloaded burst is amazing.
    It has infinite problems though, as you mentioned: for one, you'll never kill a Frostmage left 1 vs 1 and if he has more than two fingers.

    Having a Holy or Prot Paladin in a m+ environment isn't always a given. Sometimes you play Ret in m+, and it's nice to have those little things.
    And of course a healer will bring more utility to a teamcomp, it's inherently true regardless. Prot has Light of the Protector, all the merrier, but has other problems aswell.

    The barebone kit of the class doesn't magically disappear because one decided to spec Ret though. It's true that Hands/Blessings are provided by any Paladin, but then again if you enjoy Ret then it's a strong point in your favor if you're able to play around your strengths and clean the Necrosis/ dispel the poison/ throw some freedoms/ can facetank something because you can autobubble regardless of your globals and how much damage you can take.
    Ret is pretty strong in BRH aswell given how everybody there is undead and how Wake of Ashes is basically another aoe cc added to the eventual mix.

    In raids? In raids soaking is better done by someone else. Rogues do better mobility wise and damage wise. Offhealing is nonexistant, and utility can be provided by other specs since the roster can be bigger.
    Blessings as I said are bound to be overgeared.

    So basically, why Ret? Because to someone it's fun.
    Could be funnier, could be as it was, but maybe just fun will do.

    EDIT:
    Let me however repeat that I agree with Ret needing buffs. And to me the simplest of buffs can easily be +damage on the Ret aura, so that the class can sit in a comfortable upper middle of the pack.

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