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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torrasque View Post
    I'm quite glad that it isn't going to be made available as well.
    yeah you are glad im sure you do so little in the Game that it doesnt bother you

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    But thats what you allways do if you are not a terrible player. You dont die on the ground anyway....
    That isn't really true. I mean I am pretty much the same level player I was when the expansion started. Been doing it to long to make some amazing gain. But.. I did go from like 815 ilevel when I was there on the ground to like 925 now when I can skip it all. I could not one shot all the mobs at 815. Also at the start of the expansion I have not "been there done that" a 1000 times or have I "seen it all".

    You see.. I understand saying what you did might make you feel like you have a point and maybe somehow supports your claims.. whatever they are (very derpy derp from what I can tell).. but truth of the matter is you picked the wrong person and wrong line to quote to make the point you replied with. It pretty much makes you look like a dumb ass. Not trying to be mean. Its just kind of the facts.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by xqt View Post
    yeah you are glad im sure you do so little in the Game that it doesnt bother you
    You'd be wrong, the majority of my game time is spent in the world, by far. So, you are completely wrong with your assumption.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Heeresman View Post
    What?

    ???????????
    Yup, an while their at it, maybe in 7.3 they can kill off Mythic+ and WF/TF cause its ruining "my" fun....

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    I love it when the pro-flight crowd throws out this asinine argument. It just reinforces that they are incapable of understanding basic human nature.
    I love it when the seed has been planted by you over and over via bs threads.

    It just reinforces that you are incapable of wanting to understanding how to post anything other than crap over and over again, and the amount of times you have been banned justifies my post.
    Last edited by Heeresman; 2017-07-28 at 08:16 AM.
    Those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long

  6. #186
    I very much like the no flying deal, in isolated areas. No flying didn't fit for Broken Shore because it's not isolated. Having fel reavers, soul guardians, and literal fel tornados roaming the zone ready to kill you at a moments notice is absolutely amazing. Not even considering PvP, zones being dangerous in some areas, and safe in others is fun to me.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyi View Post
    Your opinions are just that, please don't try and press them on others.
    He isn't. He's stating his opinion and providing reasons for it. Nothing bad about that.

    @ Topic: I'm fine either way. While flying provides some qol it also takes away from the immersion. A new zone is better experienced from the ground.
    In that regard Tanaan's approach was decent. Have everyone start on the ground but let them work towards flying once they have experienced what you wanted them to see.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yggdrasil View Post
    That isn't really true. I mean I am pretty much the same level player I was when the expansion started. Been doing it to long to make some amazing gain. But.. I did go from like 815 ilevel when I was there on the ground to like 925 now when I can skip it all. I could not one shot all the mobs at 815. Also at the start of the expansion I have not "been there done that" a 1000 times or have I "seen it all".

    You see.. I understand saying what you did might make you feel like you have a point and maybe somehow supports your claims.. whatever they are (very derpy derp from what I can tell).. but truth of the matter is you picked the wrong person and wrong line to quote to make the point you replied with. It pretty much makes you look like a dumb ass. Not trying to be mean. Its just kind of the facts.
    Well, I know that if my characters die in the open world, then it's because I don't pay attention or have lags. I can assesss my skill while playing any character quite well, also the contribution of my gear, and if in doubt, I look for a group (to either be able to complete a 5 man quest or getting things done faster). I usually don't even bother looking for groups for small group quests, because honestly, they are not that difficult if you have more than 10 years of experience with the game and have constantly relearned playing your characters.

    Again, travel contributes nothing to the danger of my world experience. If my character dies from fall damage, its most of the time due to lags and/or my poor reaction time when I hit that glider / featherfall / levitate button. And fall damage is the only dangerous thing about the environment. Everything else does not matter, thus flying is mostly a thing of convenience. I don't even remember when one of my characters died last time because I pulled too many mobs by stubbornly riding a straight line. Travel in WoW is only memorable when you go a route for the first time. Then, it gets 100% forgettable. So, why do we have to emphasize forgettable things in WoW, while in every other media, we skip them? Or if travel is not forgettable but annoying, why do we have to do so many annoying things in a game which should make fun? Farming hat at least some value, but travel has no value at all, because random loot from random mob encounters is CRAP.

    And don't start with the simulation topic. WoW is not a simulator. If it would be, our characters would all die like starved tamagotchis if we take a break of some days.

    Edit: Now, I am an adamant pro-flyer, but I see the reasoning and use of no-flying at Argus, especially with the disconnected zones where you have to travel by portals. But I fear that they will do again a Broken Shore landscape, and I don't trust Blizzard anymore with their terrain design. My immersion is totally broken in this regard, because I see that they are creating mazes for us, to keep us running around longer, and every other reasoning only comes in second place.

    They want to cramp as many things and players as possible in a tiny space, and I really miss wide, open areas like we had in Classic - where it also was much more fun to ride around. Something which is called a "world" should be a big thing. Then it would also not matter at all if we have flight, because we would just take longer to get from A to B in such a wide area. If they would stop to create mazes, all problems with flight would vanish overnight.
    Last edited by mmoceb1073a651; 2017-07-28 at 10:18 AM.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Galathir View Post
    He isn't. He's stating his opinion and providing reasons for it. Nothing bad about that.

    @ Topic: I'm fine either way. While flying provides some qol it also takes away from the immersion. A new zone is better experienced from the ground.
    In that regard Tanaan's approach was decent. Have everyone start on the ground but let them work towards flying once they have experienced what you wanted them to see.
    It only takes away from the immersion when the content isn't design to account for it. Legion zones appear to be better experienced from the ground because that's the intention. But if the zones are meant to include flying as part of its design(Icecrown, Stormpeaks, Deepholme, etc), then flying can be an asset to improve the experience.

    And I think that's really all there is to say about the subject: Blizzard is hellbent on pushing the ground-only design, and yet they can't seem to get away with removing flight entirely. So they marginalize it almost completely. Blizzard did the bare minimum to be able to claim that flying was part of the expansion while pushing the idea that it was meant to be a reward.

    Think about it for a moment: They made players wait 8 months for it, jump through a laundry list of menial tasks that had ZERO relevance to it, didn't provide any explanation through the lore or quests for why it wasn't available. Once obtained, flying is only good for speeding up the consumption of content that's already been cleared hundreds of times, and is then immediately disallowed in the following major content patch.

    Apparently that's ok with some people. But looked at this way, I think it should be obvious why some people would also be upset about it. And really...if they aren't going to get rid of it completely, they SHOULD use it to enhance the overall experience.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-07-28 at 11:35 AM.

  10. #190
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Actually - a new planet would have been a perfect opportunity to put in place a 'flying with cost' mechanic relating to Argus (in addition to the other methods of getting around).

    Heavier gravity, maybe things can't fly as well etc ? After a few minutes, they run out of steam and have to recharge etc.

    Time to end the all on or all off and find a mechanism that encourages game play but still lets you fly around a bit.

    Opportunity lost.
    It's a shame they didn't implement WOTLK Dalaran. No flying mounts except for Krasus Landing, keep the streets clean.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    As the title states, personally i'm relieved that there is going to be no-flying on Argus.

    For one, it wouldn't make sense to have it there especially since the sky box contains un obtainable places on Argus, just the view that creates the illusion of a broken world, which is awesome and could only really be achieved without flying.

    And on another hand is the prospect of some real world PvP once again. Remember how the isle of Quel'danis was? Yeah thats going to be like that on Argus because its a relatively compact world with 3 zones sort of like the isle of Quel'danis. On the isle of Quel'danis there were people engaging in PvP all over the place, especially in the questing areas, and it ended up being some all out zone faction wars. It was pretty amazing. Flying would negate all of that, so for me i'm relieved its not going to be in Argus.
    World PvP? Haha. You're an US player, I see, so background information: I have belf on Ravencrest EU, which is an extremely alliance dominated PvP server. Being stuck on ground sucks for the faction suffering under faction imbalance. With flying, it becomes more managable. World PvP itself is also extremely skewed. I'll provide more information: I've done thousands of battlegrounds and got my Bloodthirsty in MoP. I'm not top tier multiglad, but not a complete waste. My knowledge becomes completely useless in world PvP scenario . Black rook hold WQ, playing warlock. Cheap Shot by sub rogue. Trinket immediately. Still die without accomlishing anything.

    When I played my mage (I actually have very little experience PvPing with mage) on Ravencrest, few people did actually have a go, maybe because 1) they don't like PvP 2) they don't like world PvP 3) they just want to do their shit. Getting killed by the ones who did attack me however - I never initiate combat - was an infuryating experience, because it's almost impossble to fight back and kill them. I think subconsciusly one of the reasons I don't play that mage anymore, is because of world "PvP" making non-instance activies completely unappealing.

    And Daze HAS to go, fuck that shit.
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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It only takes away from the immersion when the content isn't design to account for it. Legion zones appear to be better experienced from the ground because that's the intention. But if the zones are meant to include flying as part of its design(Icecrown, Stormpeaks, Deepholme, etc), then flying can be an asset to improve the experience.
    Before I start, let me put on record that I am an advocate for flying in the game. But I don't think your opinion here is fair. Allowing flying in a zone severely constrains the ability of the game designers to make an immersive RPG experience which is important when players are experiencing new content.

    The biggest annoyance I have with the no-flying argument is that it fails to recognise that the importance of that type of immersion diminishes drastically once a player has explored and discovered the new content.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And I think that's really all there is to say about the subject: Blizzard is hellbent on pushing the ground-only design, and yet they can't seem to get away with removing flight entirely.
    Well, they're certainly hell-bent on villifying flying and making it the scapegoat for several issues they perceive in the game. I am not sure it's about a philosophy of trying to push ground based design so much as that they view flying as a disruptive mechanic in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Think about it for a moment: They made players wait 8 months for it, jump through a laundry list of menial tasks that had ZERO relevance to it, didn't provide any explanation through the lore or quests for why it wasn't available. Once obtained, flying is only good for speeding up the consumption of content that's already been cleared hundreds of times, and is then immediately disallowed in the following major content patch.
    I agree, making us wait 8 months was definitely far too long. It should have been 3-4 months at most. Giving us a bunch of stuff to do? No problem with that really. And as for what it's good for, that is what it always has been good for. It's a way of allowing players to mitigate the tedium of travel. Travel across new areas you are exploring is fine and fun...the first time. But once you're familiar with the map then it becomes a simple waste of time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    And on another hand is the prospect of some real world PvP once again.
    Honestly, I loathe this world PvP argument against flying. I wish people would stop assuming it's valid, think about it for a second, and realise that it's a load of bollocks.

    Flying never killed world PvP. People not wanting to do world PvP (because basically it's just annoying) is what has killed world PvP. If someone is using flying to try and avoid world PvP that should tell you that world PvP should not be happening. Forcing those people to participate in world PvP by removing flying is only going to serve to frustrate them. Not good.

    If people want to engage in world PvP then they will find ways to do so with other people wanting to do so. I think the big problem is that there is no real incentive to engage in world PvP.

    Here's the thing: If you're out in the world, playing the game doing quests etc, getting ambushed and killed by another player (or a gang of players) just isn't fun. Sure, it can be fun if you get ambushed and manage to turn the tables on your attacker and beat them, but let's be honest here: The people who are out looking for PvP are those who are better at it, and they are going to generally make sure that they only attack when the odds are heavily stacked in their favour.

    And sure, some people get a kick out of disrupting another player. Personally though I think that is just asinine and cannot see how the game benefits from it.

    Which is why battlegrounds are such a great idea. If you're in a battleground it means you're there to PvP. Everybody has fun. World PvP simply doesn't offer that so it has rightfully died a miserable death. It has nothing to do with flying. RIP.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2017-07-28 at 01:03 PM.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Well, I know that if my characters die in the open world, then it's because I don't pay attention or have lags. I can assesss my skill while playing any character quite well, also the contribution of my gear, and if in doubt, I look for a group (to either be able to complete a 5 man quest or getting things done faster). I usually don't even bother looking for groups for small group quests, because honestly, they are not that difficult if you have more than 10 years of experience with the game and have constantly relearned playing your characters.

    Again, travel contributes nothing to the danger of my world experience. If my character dies from fall damage, its most of the time due to lags and/or my poor reaction time when I hit that glider / featherfall / levitate button. And fall damage is the only dangerous thing about the environment. Everything else does not matter, thus flying is mostly a thing of convenience. I don't even remember when one of my characters died last time because I pulled too many mobs by stubbornly riding a straight line. Travel in WoW is only memorable when you go a route for the first time. Then, it gets 100% forgettable. So, why do we have to emphasize forgettable things in WoW, while in every other media, we skip them? Or if travel is not forgettable but annoying, why do we have to do so many annoying things in a game which should make fun? Farming hat at least some value, but travel has no value at all, because random loot from random mob encounters is CRAP.

    And don't start with the simulation topic. WoW is not a simulator. If it would be, our characters would all die like starved tamagotchis if we take a break of some days.

    Edit: Now, I am an adamant pro-flyer, but I see the reasoning and use of no-flying at Argus, especially with the disconnected zones where you have to travel by portals. But I fear that they will do again a Broken Shore landscape, and I don't trust Blizzard anymore with their terrain design. My immersion is totally broken in this regard, because I see that they are creating mazes for us, to keep us running around longer, and every other reasoning only comes in second place.

    They want to cramp as many things and players as possible in a tiny space, and I really miss wide, open areas like we had in Classic - where it also was much more fun to ride around. Something which is called a "world" should be a big thing. Then it would also not matter at all if we have flight, because we would just take longer to get from A to B in such a wide area. If they would stop to create mazes, all problems with flight would vanish overnight.
    I see you either still don't get it or are just seeing an thing to quote and then go off on a different tangent. Likely the latter. What I said had very little to do with danger. If I kill a mob in 10 seconds or 1 hit danger isn't the issue. It's speed. When I go into have been there and see that again no danger. It means... I have been there... and I have seen it... and in my example I used a 1000 times.

    The rate at which I consume world content now compared to say start of the expansion has shifted. At the start a set of 4 world quests would take me 10 to 15 or so minutes without travel and another 10 to 15 minutes with travel. So adding up to about a half hour roughly a day with some being longer due to multiple zones etc. It allowed me to go and see things I hadn't seen much. I could mow the whole field over by standing still and spreading moonfire to 10 different targets as a resto Druid and they die before reaching me. But danger? Fear? No. Sure at first I could die if an alliance jumped me with 6 mobs on me, if I got booted off line with an elite on me, or if I jumped off a cliff or something and the wings were on CD. But that's just shit that happens. Don't Donald Trump this into fear of the world it helps you case bullshit (you will anyway, way of the internet) but my point is made.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    If you love doing content, do it properly. Without flying mount. It's simple really.
    Exactly, I like doing content with flying. Just allow it already and those that enjoy the game without flying can do so and those that want to, can. This is such a simple concept I really am confused why so many struggle with it.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Before I start, let me put on record that I am an advocate for flying in the game. But I don't think your opinion here is fair. Allowing flying in a zone severely constrains the ability of the game designers to make an immersive RPG experience which is important when players are experiencing new content.
    Why do people keep saying this? There are PLENTY of RPGs that have flying. FFXIV has flying and is the second most popular MMORPG in the genre. GW2 has a gliding mechanic that provides a different type of challenge and gameplay for players. All the superhero MMORPGs have flying, and while they aren't nearly as popular they DO manage to pull it off(DCUO and CoH did it especially well). EVE online is nothing BUT flying. Games like Grand Theft Auto seem to be able to add helicopters and airplanes everywhere as well.

    And on top of all that, you're asking me to believe that Blizzard(the number one game company in the entire world), can't figure this out? They're the company that figured out how to turn Titan into Overwatch after almost scrapping an entire multi-year project containing hundreds of developers and millions of dollars. Overwatch itself manages to not only include flying, but incorporate it into a mix of various other types of movement in a mostly "ground-based" environment.

    We're meant to believe that Blizzard can create zones like Icecrown and Stormpeaks, but magically now in Legion, years later with more experience and tech advances, that it's too challenging?!? I absolutely do not, and CAN NOT, feel that the argument you just stated is valid.

    But to clarify, I can understand how allowing players total freedom of movement on all axis, with no acceleration, momentum, or other constraints on movement would be a problem. Countless times I've pointed out how bad the mechanics of flight in WoW are, and how they need to be updated to fit a more modern design. Also, allowing complete freedom of movement like that 100% is equally bad, and is not what I'm suggesting. I fully recognize the problems allowing players to fly everywhere all of the time would represent(despite CoH, DCUO, and Champions online being able to pull it off).

    Flying doesn't need to be present all the time everywhere in order to be a good part of the overall experience. But it also doesn't need to be virtually ignored and shunted into near uselessness either. And it certainly doesn't need to be used as a false carrot for players to chase; being built up as a reward then immediately disallowed in new zones in less time than it took to obtain.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-07-28 at 08:28 PM.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    I love it when the pro-flight crowd throws out this asinine argument. It just reinforces that they are incapable of understanding basic human nature.
    No argument, just letting you know that your ground mounts still work even when flying is in the game. It would appear you and others didn't know. Just doing my best to help out.

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