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  1. #1
    The Patient Zasriel's Avatar
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    BDK "cheesable" mechanics

    Greetings,

    I am new to the BDK scene. Before Legion, I have tanked exclusively as a Prot Warrior dating back to Molten Core. With the changes reverting Prot back to a RFDT model and general fuckery of the class (i.e shield barrier i.e ignore pain) I gave up the class and rolled a Havoc DH. But I miss my tanking roots and have started a BDK because reasons (OP).

    So great forum go-ers of MMO-C, tell me, what mechanics can I essentially cheese as a BDK. The mechanics in ToS are really the most pressing, but I wouldn't mind learning what a BDK could cheese in NH, EN, or even M+s...

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Zasriel View Post
    Greetings,

    I am new to the BDK scene. Before Legion, I have tanked exclusively as a Prot Warrior dating back to Molten Core. With the changes reverting Prot back to a RFDT model and general fuckery of the class (i.e shield barrier i.e ignore pain) I gave up the class and rolled a Havoc DH. But I miss my tanking roots and have started a BDK because reasons (OP).

    So great forum go-ers of MMO-C, tell me, what mechanics can I essentially cheese as a BDK. The mechanics in ToS are really the most pressing, but I wouldn't mind learning what a BDK could cheese in NH, EN, or even M+s...

    Thanks!
    I don't exactly follow what you mean by cheese, if your looking for a complete and broad discussion about BDK, there is a post with about 150+ pages full of it, with plenty of mechanics that can be avoided using our tools, stats, rotations and theory crafting.

    If we are talking Guldan cheese, like bears and brewmaster's could do.... i kinda don't think there is any particular thing of note or interest...

    From a tank to another tank, it's weird that your looking for cheese in the first place, one would raise an eye brow and tell you "cheese is the bear, and it's strong" but that's my personal bias.

    Suffice to say, welcome to the fold. Suffer well.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral msdos's Avatar
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    What you're asking for involves a lot of typing and homework, going through each dungeon and raid, listing off every mechanic for every fight where you can avoid crap with AMS. What you're asking for is pretty absurd, imo, I'm sure there is someone out there who would type up a guide for this, but this is knowledge you should learn on your own, it feels better if you learn it on your own also.

    If it's magic, you can probably AMS the effect. That's all there really is to it, it's not rocket science. Also, death grip can be used to interrupt things that can't be interrupted, like the scorpion riders in Nelth, their frenzy, trivializes those packs, just as one freebie example for you.

  4. #4
    I'm not up for a full report of eveything you can cheese with bdk throughout legion, but i can tell you what you can do in tos :

    - Goroth - Burning armor: no debuff with AMS
    - Sass'zine - Hydra Shot: no debuff with AMS
    - KJ - armageddons (little ones) no debuff with AMS

    That's all. BDK have nice heal, but they're not fucking god. If you want cheese, make a bear like every other lazy tank out there.

  5. #5
    Spell Augur (NH): AMS to ignore one (of three) of the meteors in phase 1
    Maiden of Vigilance (ToS): AMS to avoid bombs applied by Mass Instability if you're Light side

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by genbag View Post
    That's all. BDK have nice heal, but they're not fucking god. If you want cheese, make a bear like every other lazy tank out there.
    Are you kidding? I main both bear and blood and by far the best tank is the Blood DK. You literally don't need a healer and laugh at half the mechanics in the game. Not to mention how absurdly powerful grips are... oh AND you have incredibly versatile talents, the most powerful tank cooldown in the game... oh you need a single target stun too? Here we'll throw this in since you have everything else already. Oh wait, you want a mind control with a pet mechanic too? I guess that's fine... but you don't get anything else! ...except this amazing group leech buff whenever you use your 45 sec Artifact cooldown.

    If there is any spec at all in this game that more perfectly fits the term "God", I have yet to hear about it.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Are you kidding? I main both bear and blood and by far the best tank is the Blood DK. You literally don't need a healer and laugh at half the mechanics in the game. Not to mention how absurdly powerful grips are... oh AND you have incredibly versatile talents, the most powerful tank cooldown in the game... oh you need a single target stun too? Here we'll throw this in since you have everything else already. Oh wait, you want a mind control with a pet mechanic too? I guess that's fine... but you don't get anything else! ...except this amazing group leech buff whenever you use your 45 sec Artifact cooldown.

    If there is any spec at all in this game that more perfectly fits the term "God", I have yet to hear about it.
    BDK may be kings of enemy affecting utility but the only ally affecting utility they have is the leech buff, which isn't really that great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    BDK may be kings of enemy affecting utility but the only ally affecting utility they have is the leech buff, which isn't really that great.
    Considering it's free and has a 33% uptime, it's pretty amazing. Also the grips can be counted as party buffing abilities since it helps your damage dealers by creating efficient death balls/cuts down the time an enemy is out of range. Grips are quite possibly the most powerful universal utility in the game. No other tank comes close to bringing the group synergy a BDK can bring.

    Also I'm not being salty about them or anything, I play my BDK as a second main and I love it. I'm just trying to correct the guy above when he implied BDK isn't the most godlike tank in the game.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral msdos's Avatar
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    Most of the top Mythic+ tanks are BDK right now. We're definitely strong now. Our single target DPS is still miserable, which is funny. I was tanking H Maiden with a Brewmaster and he was doing 650k sustained. Jaw dropping to be honest.

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Tehr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faltharion View Post
    If we are talking Guldan cheese, like bears and brewmaster's could do.... i kinda don't think there is any particular thing of note or interest...
    Blood DK was able to use Vampiric Blood, Rune Tap, and a combination of either AMS, IBF, or an External to survive every 100 energy Fel Scythe. Granted they were probably not as good as Guardian Druids (I had swapped to my Druid right before we got to Star Augur to trivialize the last few bosses), but I think Tojara was the first BDK to solo Fel Scythe on progression and he did pretty well.

    Also for Gul'dan cheese, if you pop AMS before your Severed Soul comes back to you, you can avoid getting the Sheared Soul healing absorb shield on yourself. Here's an example from last week when we went back in:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SuperBelovedBorkGingerPower

    Note that I popped AMS before the Severed Soul went out, and that was a misclick (AMS and VB are ctrl-4 and ctrl-5, respectively), but thankfully the rogue was quick about it. Ideally you would not want to use AMS with your other cooldowns (except Rune Tap) just because it takes care of the entire mechanic if your soakers are quick enough.

    Other cheeses: If your AMS absorbs the entire hit from Nightmare Blast on Cenarius, you wouldn't gain another stack of the debuff (or refresh it) and could potentially hold Cenarius for the entirety of P1 (P2 Spear of Nightmare was physical so you couldn't drop your stacks of that). That didn't matter much since BDK sucked dick on Cenarius until the patch (was it 7.0.5 or 7.1.0? I can't remember) where Bone Shield stopped dropping stacks from spells, since before that change you would lose BS stacks on ICD and be forced to spend WAY too many runes on Marrowrend.

    If you popped AMS before the Il'gynoth blobs died on Mythic, you could avoid taking the 8 or 10-stack debuff and so wouldn't have to stack. That's not a very important cheese, but the same principle applies to the Bursting debuff in M+ dungeons now.

    There plenty of others (besides the ones posted already), but I need to go right now; I might update this post later.
    B.Net: Tehr#1477 | Discord: Tehr#5246 | Stream | Guild Website | List of characters
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Are you kidding? I main both bear and blood and by far the best tank is the Blood DK. You literally don't need a healer and laugh at half the mechanics in the game. Not to mention how absurdly powerful grips are... oh AND you have incredibly versatile talents, the most powerful tank cooldown in the game... oh you need a single target stun too? Here we'll throw this in since you have everything else already. Oh wait, you want a mind control with a pet mechanic too? I guess that's fine... but you don't get anything else! ...except this amazing group leech buff whenever you use your 45 sec Artifact cooldown.

    If there is any spec at all in this game that more perfectly fits the term "God", I have yet to hear about it.
    and your active mitigation is puny 16% thus you take a meaty hits (and bosses in ToS like to hit HARD) so that compensates the HP,

    You have massive healing ? Guess what, in raids you have massive overhealing since healers are healing tanks constantly

    Most powerfull CD in the game I guess you're speaking about Vampiric blood: Druid have 60% DR instincts... with 2 charges, warrior have Last stand - 70% more HP, monks have 20% HP, 20% DR 10% to stagger and also 65% bonus healing from spells based on their crit chance, Oh and can literaly dodge every other melee hit

    Stuns ? with my warr I can spec to warbringer and have 2.5 sec AoE stun that's not affected by any DR and have 15sec recharge + 2 charges

    Leech ? it's ONLY on 4 random targets... it's super good in 5 man content, I agree, but in raid too random

    Tank balance is almost fine except pallies and DH in ToS. No tank is a god, Not even BDK. closest to godlike status is probably monk right now

    Also BDK was considered the shittiest tank in nighthold... they changed one talent noone ever tahes and buffed damage a bit. So what's the magical thing that makes DKs godlike because I'm missing it...

  12. #12
    Or the fact that all 9 Guilds that have killed Mythic KJ have all used double druid. Even after nerfs, they are still number 1 tank by a LONG way.

    https://www.wowprogress.com

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Honro View Post
    Or the fact that all 9 Guilds that have killed Mythic KJ have all used double druid. Even after nerfs, they are still number 1 tank by a LONG way.

    https://www.wowprogress.com
    That's nice and all, but it's not a cheese.

  14. #14
    The Patient Zasriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faltharion View Post
    I don't exactly follow what you mean by cheese, if your looking for a complete and broad discussion about BDK, there is a post with about 150+ pages full of it, with plenty of mechanics that can be avoided using our tools, stats, rotations and theory crafting.

    From a tank to another tank, it's weird that your looking for cheese in the first place, one would raise an eye brow and tell you "cheese is the bear, and it's strong" but that's my personal bias.

    Suffice to say, welcome to the fold. Suffer well.
    Right, I guess I didn't fully explain "cheese" in my post and I apologize for that. Coming from a Warrior Tank, to me "cheese" is any mechanic that would typically require an external cooldown but a BDK can use his own CDs to cover the mechanic. Because through the past two expansions the warriors have been the most reliant on other external CDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    What you're asking for is pretty absurd, imo, I'm sure there is someone out there who would type up a guide for this, but this is knowledge you should learn on your own, it feels better if you learn it on your own also.
    And yes, I realize I was asking a lot but was kind of hoping there was a compendium out there that I wasn't finding. Hence my asking for assistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by genbag View Post
    - Goroth - Burning armor: no debuff with AMS
    - Sass'zine - Hydra Shot: no debuff with AMS
    - KJ - armageddons (little ones) no debuff with AMS
    I appreciate this. What has been said thus far has been helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by genbag View Post
    That's all. BDK have nice heal, but they're not fucking god. If you want cheese, make a bear like every other lazy tank out there.
    And no, I don't want to play a bear tank. Their rotation is mindnumbingly boring and I hate their class hall. I want at least a little bit of involvement while tanking.

  15. #15
    In one of the discords there is a tanking google doc for ToS. It also has a section for abilities that can counter mechanics that would either require an external or some form of movement/tank swap/etc.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    and your active mitigation is puny 16% thus you take a meaty hits (and bosses in ToS like to hit HARD) so that compensates the HP,

    You have massive healing ? Guess what, in raids you have massive overhealing since healers are healing tanks constantly

    Most powerfull CD in the game I guess you're speaking about Vampiric blood: Druid have 60% DR instincts... with 2 charges, warrior have Last stand - 70% more HP, monks have 20% HP, 20% DR 10% to stagger and also 65% bonus healing from spells based on their crit chance, Oh and can literaly dodge every other melee hit

    Stuns ? with my warr I can spec to warbringer and have 2.5 sec AoE stun that's not affected by any DR and have 15sec recharge + 2 charges

    Leech ? it's ONLY on 4 random targets... it's super good in 5 man content, I agree, but in raid too random

    Tank balance is almost fine except pallies and DH in ToS. No tank is a god, Not even BDK. closest to godlike status is probably monk right now

    Also BDK was considered the shittiest tank in nighthold... they changed one talent noone ever tahes and buffed damage a bit. So what's the magical thing that makes DKs godlike because I'm missing it...
    Really hard hitting bosses are irrelevant, if you're against those you just take Spectral Deflection to buff the 16% DR to 32% (oh and not sure why you think 16% is bad anyway since it's literally 100% uptime) and heal yourself to full with every single Death Strike. If you're geared properly you have the haste the maintain it. A good BDK will be top on healing against hard hitting bosses and deal with the damage far better than other tanks who rely on their healers or short-lived cooldowns. Even Mythic KJ Felclaws which is the most damage intake period from a boss that tanks have to deal with right now don't threaten BDK's in the slightest, you just pop VB for every one and heal yourself to full after each swipe.

    Then you take into account VB, Blood Mirror, Rune Tap, AMS, IBF, DRW (40% parry lul)... there's literally nothing in the game that hits hard enough to make you reconsider tanking as a BDK. Your health pool rivals a bear, beats it with Foul Bulwark, your healing is better than healers and you have an answer for literally everything the game can throw at you. I'm failing to see the magical thing that makes any other tank universally better?
    Last edited by Vakna; 2017-08-02 at 04:51 AM.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  17. #17
    I feel what people are missing is how important item level is. In my opinion, the fact that this is one of the first tiers where we truly out gear the content by an insane amount is what pushes BDK so far ahead. My BDK is 932 and all I do is run some M+ and casual pug Heroic clears weekly for what I can tolerate doing. Best I can say is try tanking H ToS in 910-915 and you'll notice the difference. Also, for our damage just stack some Crit. As long as you are capable of using your Death Strike when needed for heals, you'll be spiky but push out decent numbers. I don't even have defensive legendaries (I finally got Belt this morning, but lack boots to swap) so I am running Sephuz that I hardly proc in raids, and Boots because why not go fast while I wait out RNG? BDK is really good, but honestly, what tank isn't really good with high ilvl right now? Every tank has their perks, ours just requires less healers and you can definitely see a difference in our damage. Shit my 915 Veng DH was pulling much higher numbers with Spirit Bomb in H ToS.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Really hard hitting bosses are irrelevant, if you're against those you just take Spectral Deflection to buff the 16% DR to 32% (oh and not sure why you think 16% is bad anyway since it's literally 100% uptime) and heal yourself to full with every single Death Strike. If you're geared properly you have the haste the maintain it. A good BDK will be top on healing against hard hitting bosses and deal with the damage far better than other tanks who rely on their healers or short-lived cooldowns. Even Mythic KJ Felclaws which is the most damage intake period from a boss that tanks have to deal with right now don't threaten BDK's in the slightest, you just pop VB for every one and heal yourself to full after each swipe.
    Spectral deflection, hueheuheuheu.

    And yes, you have 16% all the time, while everyone has 60% for 70% of the time. We are really weak to spike damage, compared to other tanks.

    As for Mythic KJ, too bad we can't know, since everyone uses double bear.

    In M+, can't say it's bad tho, it's where it becomes really nice to use with all those utilities, and there is enough aoe to make us rather useful, and mostly high but linear damage output, wich is where we're good.

    And yes, we got nice healing, but you need to be at melee, and you need to cast more off those, where onther tank heal for a larger amount per cast, and don't give a fuck about where they are.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Really hard hitting bosses are irrelevant, if you're against those you just take Spectral Deflection to buff the 16% DR to 32% (oh and not sure why you think 16% is bad anyway since it's literally 100% uptime) and heal yourself to full with every single Death Strike. If you're geared properly you have the haste the maintain it. A good BDK will be top on healing against hard hitting bosses and deal with the damage far better than other tanks who rely on their healers or short-lived cooldowns. Even Mythic KJ Felclaws which is the most damage intake period from a boss that tanks have to deal with right now don't threaten BDK's in the slightest, you just pop VB for every one and heal yourself to full after each swipe.

    Then you take into account VB, Blood Mirror, Rune Tap, AMS, IBF, DRW (40% parry lul)... there's literally nothing in the game that hits hard enough to make you reconsider tanking as a BDK. Your health pool rivals a bear, beats it with Foul Bulwark, your healing is better than healers and you have an answer for literally everything the game can throw at you. I'm failing to see the magical thing that makes any other tank universally better?
    With KJ relic my block stops 40% damage... that's even more than yours with all the talents and procs and OH my crit blocks stops 80 % of the incomming damage and I have 52% chance to crit block (and artifact ability that makes me critblock everything for 3 sec) also I can have 100% or near 100% shield block uptime.

    And I'm not even talking about Ignore Pain (for me it's 1.2 - 1.3 mil absorb every cast) You know... absorba that can't really overheal

    Felclaws do damage to you ??? I never noticed because my mitigation completly negates all the damage and I don't even have to use any CD
    Also I soaked Armageddon hail with 5 stacks of felclaws without even noticing (without it, it deals 180k damage to me lul)

    My prot warrior completly dumpsters every single tank class in damage taken department on every boss (except maybe Harjatan)

    And guess what is easier to heal: lower damage intake with smaller HP pool or very high damage intake with high HP pool

  20. #20
    Dreadlord Saybel's Avatar
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    wow holy shit people are so defensive about the class

    @op, blood dks have pretty much the most reliable (read, not the highest, the most R E L I A B L E) EHP increasing in the game, if you want to "solo" mechanics that aren't supposed to be soloed/need loads of externals DKs are the best class PROVIDED you have the right legendaries because you can stack -

    55% hp
    40% dr
    16% dr
    20% hp

    one of - an absorb/a 20% dr/another 20% dr

    if you have soul of the deathlord

    Generally you can do this every 30 seconds which is more then enough for most mechanics - but it's only really useful on Maiden of Vigilance
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