Thoughts about rerolling to DH 7.2.5

[Dimzum]

Inquisition - you have the full minute on pull starting on Atrigan, the Nemeses after that you'll lose just the cast time of their respective channels.
Sisters - on Mythic, the individual bosses stay up long enough that you don't lose any uptime. You can Nemesis the add if you like, because bosses and owl are both Undead.
Harjatan - tunneling the boss is fine tbh, switching to the caster murlocs for a few seconds doesn't exactly ruin your whole dps on the fight either though.
Mistress - again, "tunneling" is fine as it's mostly a ST fight. you can Nemesis a murloc later on and get the Humanoid-buff.
Host - I hope you realize how Nemesis works - Nemesis one of the small residue adds at the beginning, profit. Everything down there is labelled as Undead.
Avatar - not sure what's so terrible about it. every melee gets downtime in the 2nd phase. on the first phase, you just rarely have to hit the maid for a couple of seconds, which is not a big deal.

No lie, thanks for the tips. Giving the DH another look because why not (also I love the demonic build and T21 is all about that).
I usually do just tunnel Harjatan and Mistress. Host I'm usual up top so I just focus the Engine and try to hold FotI for adds.
Avatar, I think the issue I was having is timing CDs along side boss mechanics. Just outta practice with the DH.

[Deleted]

Host - I hope you realize how Nemesis works - Nemesis one of the small residue adds at the beginning, profit. Everything down there is labelled as Undead.

Not all adds down there are undead. The small crawlers are not (don't know what type they are).
But just use nem on a priest.

On the top realm -> put nem on the engine and cleave the adds.

[Epicon]

I rerolled to Rogue Sin/Sub the start of 7.2 and I don't regret it at all. DPS is so easy on DH they may as well make it a cruise control class and it is the most boring spec to play in the history of WoW. I really enjoy Vengeance tanking, as it reminds me of MoP Blood DK but they are in a horrible spot and might even be worse than Pallys. I intend to unlock my DH mount and let him sit.
I'll work on my Monk MW alt instead.

[Shirofune]

Not all adds down there are undead. The small crawlers are not (don't know what type they are).
But just use nem on a priest.

On the top realm -> put nem on the engine and cleave the adds.

They're. But this only works in the Spiritual Realm.

In the corporeal realm, the adds are Undead and the boss is Mechanical.

Also, even if you get a full Nemesis onto everything, something that isn't really easy to do, as the those adds have very little HP and its hard to sync Meta and CB/Nemesis with the adds spawn (1:50 - 1:50 CD on the spawn), our AoE damage is still laughable.

[Ilir]

If you don't push high level raiding, yes rerolling to DH is fine.

- - - Updated - - -

But since you're asking this... the answer would most likely be "yes reroll DH if you enjoy it"

[Zyky]

99th percentile doesn't matter to the majority of people playing.On our first mythic sisters kill, our other DH was top dps and I was 5th. Don't let those statistics turn you away from a class. You can still do great damage in fights.

You've got your statement mixed up. Personal experience in a guild of shitters is what doesn't matter, statistics are whats important.

[epLe]

You've got your statement mixed up. Personal experience in a guild of shitters is what doesn't matter, statistics are whats important.

That's your personal view and experience only.

The 99%+ majority cares way more about the progress their own raid, over their statistics and logs.

[Zyky]

That's your personal view and experience only.

The 99%+ majority cares way more about the progress their own raid, over their statistics and logs.

That's 100% false. Statistics are what matters. Guild leadership goes off what classes/specs are doing well as to what they recruit. No one in their right mind is going to say "I can choose from a 99th percentile Affliction Lock or a 99th percentile Havoc DH" and pick the DH, that's common sense. And if you're talking about casual guilds, it has no place in a conversation that started by talking about mythic bosses.

[Pigglix]

If your guild is not going for the world 1st, then yes, your guild is pretty much casual no matter how hard some "elitists" try to paint it being part of a hardcore guild.

If you're in one of those guild and getting benched because of statics, then i suggest you to move from guild, not from class.

[Shirofune]

If your guild is not going for the world 1st, then yes, your guild is pretty much casual no matter how hard some "elitists" try to paint it being part of a hardcore guild.

If you're in one of those guild and getting benched because of statics, then i suggest you to move from guild, not from class.

I had the same argue in Discord.

Exactly why if you're not going for world first you're a casual?

My guild raids 3 days a week and we're currently 5/9 M. We're facing the SAME issues Method, Exorsus and all the other guilds faced in the race for world first. We're seeing how ToS is full of soak mechanics and how shitty some classes are because the bosses are full of AoE and cleave, something that DH is not good at.

No, I'm not getting benched. But I already got asked to reroll to my rogue. I refused because I can't stand Rogue rotation and its bugged Death from Above.

People progressing Mythic have the same reasons to complain about stuff than world first guilds, no matter what people say. Is not like DH is suddenly good if you're not in a world first guild.

[kaminami]

That's 100% false. Statistics are what matters. Guild leadership goes off what classes/specs are doing well as to what they recruit. No one in their right mind is going to say "I can choose from a 99th percentile Affliction Lock or a 99th percentile Havoc DH" and pick the DH, that's common sense. And if you're talking about casual guilds, it has no place in a conversation that started by talking about mythic bosses.

If you have the luxury to choose between two 99% parsers, that's probably true. Except for the true hardcore guilds though, I doubt that's a reality. I'm talking about standard 2-3 days/week raids that are around 4-6/9 in mythic or something right now - in these guilds (I wouldn't call these "casual", btw), if you can pull your weight by parsing well within your spec and playing mechanics well, the guild leaders would be stupid to replace you with a "better" class because in reality they can't choose between 10 different people that all parse at 99%.

Also, even if you get a full Nemesis onto everything, something that isn't really easy to do, as the those adds have very little HP and its hard to sync Meta and CB/Nemesis with the adds spawn (1:50 - 1:50 CD on the spawn), our AoE damage is still laughable.

On Host, I start by instantly nemesising one of the little adds, they die right away anyway. For every new add spawn, Nemesis comes up just on time, again on one small add that I then burst down instantly (+meta on the 2nd respawn).
Honestly, I kinda like the challenge as Havoc. Of course it's basically impossible to outdamage say an Affliction oder Balance on a fight like Host if they at all know what they're doing. But getting as close to them as possible because you're parsing much higher, that's what's fun

[Pigglix]

Because to me, i can only say a guild is hardcore if they:

1) Race for the 1st world
2) Everyone in the raid team has at least 3 alts ready to go "equally" geared and the player behind has to be good on all of them, knowing their tricks and what not
3) Raid at least 5 days a week, spending 4-5 hours each day
4) When the PTR is up, every Raid Team member has to be there to already know the fights beforehand.

If a guild does not fill one those criterias, to me they're not hardcore.

And i get you Shiro, they do have the same reasons, but is it justified ? I mean, if every class/spec is capable of doing the dps required to beat the boss, and if you're not in a race, then why give yourself trouble demanding people to change mains or changing main yourself? Just give it time and boss will be beaten eventually.

I am not saying DH is fine and all and if you check my post history you will see that i even tried to main a warrior over the DH, but eh, like i said, i tired of the "number" game and i am blessed to be in a guild where the raid leader says : "if you doing the dps req for the fight, then play w/e you feel like" and to me DH is one of the most fun classes i ever touched in a long time, so yeah, i am sticking with it despite their problems, specially because i love the "chaos strike mash button" gameplay, i love classes that i can spam one single key instead of having a rotation or priority system.

Sometimes i get the impresion that people make the mistake of the meaning of hardcore and casual, as in: hardcore = good players/guild and casual = pleb players/guild who give a fuck about perfomance. I hope this is not the case.

Anyway, i remember of of these Q&A when legion was live and someone asked about classes that arent goood for M+ because of weak AoE/Cleave and Ion said to not judge a class/spec by warcraftlogs and give these said bad class/spec a chance. At start i though he was full of BS but in time, yeah, he may be right. Sometimes i feel the warcraftlogs is just a measure of how popular a spec or class is and not how good or bad they are. Remember EN? DH was pretty much at the top but when you changed to "only boss dmg" they "sucked hard.

But enough with that, i think we may start to derail the thread if we keep this, feel free to pm if you like to continue xD.

[kaelleria]

Regardless of how you personally feel about your performance and your guild's policies, no one can objectively say that DH are in a good spot. It doesn't matter if you're play hardcore or are a filthy casual (like I am atm) it just feels bad to know that you could be putting out x% more damage if you were just playing a different class.

[Shirofune]

Because to me, i can only say a guild is hardcore if they:

1) Race for the 1st world
2) Everyone in the raid team has at least 3 alts ready to go "equally" geared and the player behind has to be good on all of them, knowing their tricks and what not
3) Raid at least 5 days a week, spending 4-5 hours each day
4) When the PTR is up, every Raid Team member has to be there to already know the fights beforehand.

If a guild does not fill one those criterias, to me they're not hardcore.

And i get you Shiro, they do have the same reasons, but is it justified ? I mean, if every class/spec is capable of doing the dps required to beat the boss, and if you're not in a race, then why give yourself trouble demanding people to change mains or changing main yourself? Just give it time and boss will be beaten eventually.

I am not saying DH is fine and all and if you check my post history you will see that i even tried to main a warrior over the DH, but eh, like i said, i tired of the "number" game and i am blessed to be in a guild where the raid leader says : "if you doing the dps req for the fight, then play w/e you feel like" and to me DH is one of the most fun classes i ever touched in a long time, so yeah, i am sticking with it despite their problems, specially because i love the "chaos strike mash button" gameplay, i love classes that i can spam one single key instead of having a rotation or priority system.

Sometimes i get the impresion that people make the mistake of the meaning of hardcore and casual, as in: hardcore = good players/guild and casual = pleb players/guild who give a fuck about perfomance. I hope this is not the case.

Anyway, i remember of of these Q&A when legion was live and someone asked about classes that arent goood for M+ because of weak AoE/Cleave and Ion said to not judge a class/spec by warcraftlogs and give these said bad class/spec a chance. At start i though he was full of BS but in time, yeah, he may be right. Sometimes i feel the warcraftlogs is just a measure of how popular a spec or class is and not how good or bad they are. Remember EN? DH was pretty much at the top but when you changed to "only boss dmg" they "sucked hard.

But enough with that, i think we may start to derail the thread if we keep this, feel free to pm if you like to continue xD.

I'll keep this short. We're not world first guilds, we're not as good as they're, hence our teamwork may not be as good. For sure our personal skill isn't as good as they're.

We're pushing less DPS with our classes than they're, we're doing the events worse than they're. Everything is, in fact, harder for us.

Switching to a class that has:

1/ Way higher DPS potential
2/ A lot of potential in soaking

Increases said chance of success. And of course, Guild leaders recruit people based on which spec performs the best or not.

Do you really think any half decent guild is recruiting Demon Hunters currently for ToS progression? The only legit reason to bring a DH to your raid atm is because your roster is not full or it sucks.

[Pigglix]

I do think, yes, in my experience a good raid leader would be worried first to get a good player instead of a good class. You said you didnt changed to rogue yet because you dont like it how the class play.

So what's the point of the guild leader make you swap to something you dont like and risk the chance to make you bunout from the game and lose a good player, instead of leting the said player stick with a class he enjoy? Yes, will do less dps and maybe make things slightly harder, but if that means everyone is having fun playing with what they like and being capable of doing raid mechanics and not failing the dps checks, then yeah, i think a half-decent guild should be looking after that instead of looking at warcraftlogs and having the wrong notion of what's viable or not.

You know, bring the player, not the class.

[Shirofune]

I do think, yes, in my experience a good raid leader would be worried first to get a good player instead of a good class. You said you didnt changed to rogue yet because you dont like it how the class play.

So what's the point of the guild leader make you swap to something you dont like and risk the chance to make you bunout from the game and lose a good player, instead of leting the said player stick with a class he enjoy? Yes, will do less dps and maybe make things slightly harder, but if that means everyone is having fun playing with what they like and being capable of doing raid mechanics and not failing the dps checks, then yeah, i think a half-decent guild should be looking after that instead of looking at warcraftlogs and having the wrong notion of what's viable or not.

You know, bring the player, not the class.

Because I'm one of the best players of my guild and they've nobody to replace me with. That's the reason I can stay as DH.

Be sure, in any half-serious guild progressing that has a decent roster, people WILL get replaced, specially for bosses like Avatar that require an insane amount of soaking.

[chooi]

So because some disagrees with what you find fun and entertaining, they are automatically labeled "dumb"? You are certainly well withing your rights and capability to make the statement, but questioning someones intellectual capacity purely out of disagreement of opinion is disturbingly closed minded.

You say that it has devolved since beta to live, yet provide no evidence or attempt to illustrate the thought. Remember, the majority of the population likely did not have access to alpha/beta and would be unaware of changes made along the way. Perhaps you could illuminate us.

Further in you say nemesis "shouldn't even be a thing...", yet fail to say why and provide argument. Same thing for "non-fel/physical-damage". Why? And more importantly, what would be your proposed fix?

Finally, regarding the list of problem and failure....I somehow doubt they are too long. However, I ask that you humor me and provide the list of those things which you disagree with regarding Havoc.

Changing the opinions of people is impossible unless you illustrate a well thought out argument and provide evidence. I look forward to hearing your opinion.

I don't want to change anyone's opinions. I'm merely stating mine. Feel free to disagree.

Also feel free to crawl through my post history from Alpha/Beta/Early-Legion and you'll probably find what you seek. I've also discussed those things on DH-Discord and Blizz Beta Forums that I can't replicate, though. I won't go through that stuff all over again because it would go too far and the damage was done already. Also, not playing the game currently and probably won't for a while because of reasons.

Momentum was/is not perfect. That's why I wanted improvements to make it better. The problem is that people can't or don't want to think of Momentum further than its current iteration.

I don't like Nemesis because it simply is a lame talent with impractible restrictions. Good concept but poor execution. IMO there are several ways to make that talent more interesting, e.g. similar reset-mechanic "Marked for Death", damage bonus on specific target (not type) that can be swapped on short CD, splash damage around Nemesis target, something other than pure +% damage, etc. etc.

Non-Fel/Physical damage: thought that was obvious. Felblade deals Fire damage. Demon Blades deals Shadow damage. IMO they should all deal Fel damage and scale with Mastery. I know they probably do it because of easier balancing. Not a deal breaker, agreed.

PS: I call those people dumb because they just wanted to see Momentum utterly destroyed instead of improving its unique concept.