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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    I liked it, but I guess Blizzard overestimated their player base and it's ability to adjust.
    I generally don't like bashing players - a game developer's job is mostly entertaining your customers, not training or conditioning them - but this is spot on. I've never seen so many people failing to grasp the basics of a map like on Hanamura. Worst of many examples was the other four guys on my team setting up a 'gank' around the enemies payload spawn. However the other team didn't consist of lobotomized monkeys, just kept soaking and pushing and extended their lead from half a level to two. I insulted my team for what should have been worth half a year of silence but nothing ever came...

  2. #22
    So, the current Tracer brawl got me thinking.

    Could Hanamura be fixed - if it even needs fixing, which I'm not so convinced about, but I guess most people, Blizzard included, think this way - simply with increasing the point pool to like 40 and making takedowns grant a point?

    The main problem with the map seems to be that it's very hard to come back if your carts get delayed too much early game, if that happens, you may not be able to make a come back even with 1 or 2 complete wipes of the enemy team. Very often such comebacks only get to a point of drawing up the score, but then the brick wall of delayed carts kicks in - there simply are no points on the map to grab and the only thing a team can do is wait and try to push. This creates a very long moment of awkwardness when the team making a comeback has to be all over the map, pushing forts if there are any left, delaying carts and clearing camps, while the defenders can pretty much sit back and wait for an opening, since even after several minutes of dominating the game, it still only takes a single mistake for the comebackers to lose the game.

    Now, making kills grant points would mean games will end faster, and the possibility of comeback would be much lower than it currently is if a team gave away too many kills early. But it is often the case that a losing team will not even try to contest a cart if they feel they are in no position to fight, and so there are only several kills in the whole game.The issue with that is that you only lose and delay the inevitable if you give up the carts. If there are kill points, giving up a teamfight and pushing a fort or hunting for rotating people would still be a small loss, but the team would stand to gain SOMETHING, even if it's 1 point for the opponent's 4 - right now it's 0 for 4 and your carts get delayed.

    But in a scenario where a team gets carts delayed early, but starts taking control of the game later on, those kill points are exactly what is needed to get rid of that moment where there are no points on the map. This also opens up more approaches to the game - it may even be a good plan to hunt for kills and push hard early on, while ignoring the carts, and banking on the XP and kill advantage to carry you through the rest of the game.
    Last edited by Airlick; 2017-09-02 at 09:19 AM.
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  3. #23
    Banned Aeilon's Avatar
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    It broken to a point that if you lost early game, you had little to no chance to recover. Often you can even say, let them have that one...we just need to deliver this one anyway and we win.

  4. #24
    Maybe, but what with partial kills - Murky/Vikings/Misha/Dva bot? The real problems with this map are:
    1. It's so big - Nuclear Polygon size and only two lanes
    2. It's so fast - played many fights there (unfortunately) and got 20 only twice
    3. Highly dependent on comp - it favors early game comps (point 2), also good solo specialists (Gazlowe, Sylvanas Zagara) and global presence heroes (point 1)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    I liked it, but I guess Blizzard overestimated their player base and it's ability to adjust.
    The playerbase wasn't the issue, most Hanamura games are won/lost on the loading screen. Due to it's flawed design it massively favours heros who scale well in the early game, by comparison heros who start weak but scale well into the endgame are useless because the game either won't make it to 20 or by that point the game will be past the point of no return.

    IMO it needs the time between payload spawns doubling.

  6. #26
    Honestly, I'd rather have Hanamura back over Mercenary Mines at this point. Yeah there was some shitbirding going on in Shimadaland but not to the extent Mercenary Mines is.
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  7. #27
    Stood in the Fire Ballistic's Avatar
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    Thank god for removing this shitty map, Now people are realizing how awful this map is after screwing our ranks.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk RH92's Avatar
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    I think the biggest problem with recent maps and reworks is they make objectives way too strong.

    I wish there were more maps where objective is easier to defend, like Dragon Shrire, Tomb of Spider Queen or Infernal Shrines. Even Cursed Hollow is good map because the objective is not immediate and provides a good comeback mechanic for losing team if defended well (Because it stacks multiple minion waves for you).

    Maps like Sky Temple, Towers of Doom and Battlefield of Eternity are fine to a lesses extent too, but I find objective either too strong or way too snowbally for my liking.

    Other maps are just bad, objective way too punishing unless drafted specifically against it or just extremely snowbally. However I think Warhead Junction would be a good map if nukes scaled linearly and weren't so powerful.

  9. #29
    I actually felt that TotSQ objective was far too weak. The spiders were dying fast and doing 0 harm to structures. It was pointless to even bother with gathering crystals and turning them. But lately I noticed they got stronger. I had a 2 week break or so recently so maybe they got buffed at that time?

    Now I'm waiting for Towers of Doom to be removed from the game because people clearly has 0 idea how to play on that map and I still feel like it's the main reason behind Hanamura removal.

  10. #30
    ToD isn't going anywhere. Some of the most clutch moments in the game take place on that map, and it sees plenty of play in tournaments.
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  11. #31
    Most of the HotS maps suck but Hanamura took the cake. I'm glad it's no longer on the rotation, and I truly truly do hope they never add it back.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    ToD isn't going anywhere. Some of the most clutch moments in the game take place on that map, and it sees plenty of play in tournaments.
    I like ToD myself but if you get 4 people that chase the bait instead of focusing on altar and don't react to your comments, you know you can just help the enemy team win so you don't waste the time.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    So, the current Tracer brawl got me thinking.

    Could Hanamura be fixed - if it even needs fixing, which I'm not so convinced about, but I guess most people, Blizzard included, think this way - simply with increasing the point pool to like 40 and making takedowns grant a point?

    It would make "weak" hp heroes worthless. Imagine murky on that? How you gonna fix that, make core take 0.25 dmg? yeah no. Leoric who sorta benefits from death in a way others dont? How about tanks in general? Or tracer, with low hp?

    It would be hell for bronze-gold players because tanks go in but they dont. The toxicity would go up 110% in hanamura alone.

    It would be PASSIVEmura. Everyone would be scared s***less to do anything so they dont cost the game. Also QM murky players would just stop
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Roudene View Post
    I like ToD myself but if you get 4 people that chase the bait instead of focusing on altar and don't react to your comments, you know you can just help the enemy team win so you don't waste the time.
    That happens on every map. You can't design your way out of stupidity on the part of the players like that.
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  15. #35
    I know it's probably not balanced for competitive play, but the BRAWL Overwatch map where you pushed a payload the whole game was a shit ton of fun.

    Hanamura needs work. Concept was fine, execution fell a bit short. The merc camps definitely need a rethink for a start.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    That happens on every map. You can't design your way out of stupidity on the part of the players like that.
    Of course it happens on every map but now when Hanamura is out, ToD takes the crown.

    Yesterday enemy team picked Abathur there. I was like.. well, I don't see him working there, especially since they already have Gazlowe so they'll be 3vs4/5 while contensting but thought that I might be wrong. Well, the only thing I was wrong about was that they sent Raynor top versus me. Abathur was useless the whole game, we crushed them hard, at some point we had 6 towers.

    I'd understand if the rules were complicated but they're really not. I believe there should be a obligatory tutorial for every map before player is allowed into a real game.

  17. #37
    High Overlord DRenziboy's Avatar
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    what if kills don't affect the core but instead the reload time for the payload.
    Wouldn't that make comebacks more likely?
    Also have a kill point on taking a fort instead of giving a boost to an already existing payload.

    Merc camps were stupid they need to have a massive rework:
    - keep turret that one is fine
    - have all of them affect the current payload in some way

    Just spitballin' some quick ideas.
    Last edited by DRenziboy; 2017-09-12 at 09:41 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Roudene View Post
    Of course it happens on every map but now when Hanamura is out, ToD takes the crown.

    Yesterday enemy team picked Abathur there. I was like.. well, I don't see him working there, especially since they already have Gazlowe so they'll be 3vs4/5 while contensting but thought that I might be wrong. Well, the only thing I was wrong about was that they sent Raynor top versus me. Abathur was useless the whole game, we crushed them hard, at some point we had 6 towers.

    I'd understand if the rules were complicated but they're really not. I believe there should be a obligatory tutorial for every map before player is allowed into a real game.
    That's interesting because I love playing Abathur on ToD. Specifically going full mine build can help a lot in preventing rotations in time. And of course the whole splitpushing aspect given it's a rather large map. Maybe the guy just sucked?
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Maybe the guy just sucked?
    Probably, like most Aba players. Forgot to add that I picked Zagara to counter their lane push while being able to jump to altars via R.


    On topic tho: Can't wait to see what changes for Hanamura they have in mind.

  20. #40
    I expect to hear more about it at Blizzcon.
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