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  1. #21
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Extremely bold thing to say with only 2 hours on the PTR and a minuscule portion of the playerbase of wildly differing skills playing it. 2 meager seconds of doing nothing while chaos happens around you is hardly leading the charge on anything. At least Reinhardt and Orisa can block damage thrown at their team at chokepoints. Zarya feeds energy off it. DVa nullifies it. Winston... is busy in their backline doing monkey business. Roadhog is... running around vaping. It's a purely selfish ability.
    Bullets that hit you don't hit an ally. So no; not purely selfish.

    ... Since when was a literal -33% bullet damage nerf a mere 10% decrease? Are you including the ROF buff? If so, that would explain why you think
    If you're not factoring in the ROF increase and the clip size increase, then you're not making a fair and balanced comparison to begin with.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Bullets that hit you don't hit an ally. So no; not purely selfish.
    Any bullets that hit you is purely coincidental. The moment anyone see's Hog reaching up to his face they know they have two seconds to turn fire on your team. Spam into the chokepoint. Etc.,

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you're not factoring in the ROF increase and the clip size increase, then you're not making a fair and balanced comparison to begin with.
    Yes, I am. ROF is irrelevant to the hook combo- if you don't kill the target in one shot, your chances of killing them drop exponentially faster every quarter of a second. The spread on the scrap gun is so wide that if they manage to get 2m away from you they are mostly home-free barring divine intervention on your behalf.
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  3. #23
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    I don't think the Hog buffs are terrible or unwanted. I think its disingenuous to argue that increased survivability is bad when what one really means is "I want a DPS buff instead."

    I think part of the problem with Hog is that he doesn't really have a good niche right now. He's not tanky enough to be a tank and his DPS isn't good enough to be a DPS. I think Blizz wanted him to end up being a bruiser where he did decent DPS and had good longevity but wasn't overly strong at either. Instead he just ended up being so mediocre at both that he doesn't really fit anywhere and there's not really a context where he's worth picking over another tank or another DPS.

    If they don't want to go back to the route of him hook/shot comboing people to death -- and I don't think they do -- then I think maybe they should take him further down the path of CC and give him back longer hook range and/or shorter hook cooldown and/or longer stun time post hook or something like that to increase his disruption and control. Then even if he personally can't solo murder everyone he hooks, he'll provide opportunities with teamwork for splitting out and picking off people in teamfights.

    But that's me. I'm not a dev so what do I know.
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  4. #24
    Yes, I wanted a DPS buff, not given the Bastion treatment ala rework him so he wouldn't be useless but then nerf him back down to uselessness anyways because precious Offense tears make Blizzard sad

    Numerically the survivability buff is good. Spiritually it's just a kiss of death and an omen that Roadhog will have at least another 6 months in the wilderness before Blizzard drags their knuckles off the floor to do something, and likely make him another soak damage and be at the mercy of your team tank.
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  5. #25
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Yes, I am. ROF is irrelevant to the hook combo-
    Evaluating Roadhog solely on the hook combo is like evaluating Soldier 76 solely on helix rockets.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Evaluating Roadhog solely on the hook combo is like evaluating Soldier 76 solely on helix rockets.
    And what else does Roadhog has that is a tangible asset to the team if not the (removed) ability to combo low HP hero/flankers? Despite what people say, he's not Reaper.
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  7. #27
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    And what else does Roadhog has that is a tangible asset to the team if not the (removed) ability to combo low HP hero/flankers? Despite what people say, he's not Reaper.
    No, but he does provide solid frontline damage. He provides a bullet sponge allowing him to take risks to get kills. He disrupts by snagging specific targets to pull them out of position. Etc.

    Hook has uses outside a pure one-shot combo play.

  8. #28
    Not to mention with Roadhog he can self heal and take quite a few hits for the team, can be irritating for low damage heroes to hit him and just see him heal up.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    And what else does Roadhog has that is a tangible asset to the team if not the (removed) ability to combo low HP hero/flankers? Despite what people say, he's not Reaper.
    I've managed to Hook/Shoot/melee players and kill them as squishes. I've also managed to do this and finish off a fleeing enemy with Right click. I've also started picking him more lately due to the release of DF, as he seems to be a great tank to go against him. Even if you don't finish the player off, he's low enough health that either your team will or he's out of the fight running for a while. The biggest issue with Hog right now is that he is a bullet sponge, but guess what, so is Winston. There are 2 effective Winston players: those that know when and how to dive the team or flank and dive out to escape, and those that know an opposing team doesn't give a shit about their support and takes advantage of that, and Winston is highly effective against Genji, who people like to play with dive comps. The only difference between the 2 is mobility and Winston has a bubble, and even that isn't always effective with its low damage intake before breaking.
    Now, with Hog, he has a little more sustainability with his E and a healer with him, and his damage output is far better than Rein's or an uncharged Zarya. Being able to keep moving after hitting it is nice too because, even as a bullet sponge, you can get right in someone's face and block your team while they run in behind you. Add on that his self healing gives him Ult charge, and in capable hands these changes can make him more effective once again.

    I like the Orissa changes, because unless you are amazing at leading (on and off for me), it's hard to hit people at certain ranges. The shield is also nice because one of my favorite things to do on payloads is to place it on the front of the car. People aiming under it really make that not work as well. Before the same thing is said about Rein, he actually doesn't need to sit on the cart but can be in front of it and let it push him.

    Junkrat...I don't know. At first it sounds cool, but I think it might be too good. They already do a buttload of damage if you throw it in someone's face, and know he'll be able to use 1 and then immediately have another to throw at someone. On the other hand, it will be amazing to use that combo on a Pharah. Seems to be a really strong change for people that devote a lot of time to him and learning the map's ins and outs. Will have to see how it plays out for him I guess.

  10. #30
    Wow I am somewhat of a Junkrat main and I didn't feel the need for any buffs nor nerfs haha (well maybe tire movement speed is nice), this is going to be sweet
    Too bad you still can't ultimate mid air :S

  11. #31
    So they gave him two mines but didn't nerf his damage at all..yea that sounds like Blizzard.
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  12. #32

  13. #33
    Yeah, I've been saying Junkrat has really needed some buffs for a while now, mainly his ult, which is just awful...

    I'm fine with the Roadhog buffs. He can still be a decent character as long as you can aim his shotgun without relaying on his hook for every one of your hits. But let's be honest, that's going to be most Roadhogs.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    Yeah, I've been saying Junkrat has really needed some buffs for a while now, mainly his ult, which is just awful...

    I'm fine with the Roadhog buffs. He can still be a decent character as long as you can aim his shotgun without relaying on his hook for every one of your hits. But let's be honest, that's going to be most Roadhogs.
    https://streamable.com/jux50 DPS outhealed by a single Zen orb. Feels bad man.

    https://streamable.com/vk8sr

    Now imagine not relying on the hook to set them up. It's a nightmare.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    https://streamable.com/jux50 DPS outhealed by a single Zen orb. Feels bad man.

    https://streamable.com/vk8sr

    Now imagine not relying on the hook to set them up. It's a nightmare.
    He missed his shots. And remember Roadhog is a tank. Besides healers, they are last people who deserves an easy kill for landing an easy hook.

  16. #36
    Over 9000! Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabled View Post
    So they gave him two mines but didn't nerf his damage at all..yea that sounds like Blizzard.
    I have been seeing wow balance creeping into overwatch. They really need to use PTR to test things better.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    He missed his shots.
    No. He did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    And remember Roadhog is a tank.
    No he is not. This isn't an MMO where the "tank" had ways of maintaining aggro and forcing people to attack them. He was put in that category because of his high HP pool where Kaplan himself said the categories aren't meant to be rigidly defined (Hi Symmetra). He has no tools to actively shield his team. He has no tools to provide his team direct support. He "tanked" by hooking and killing threats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    I have been seeing wow balance creeping into overwatch. They really need to use PTR to test things better.
    No question the mines are going to get nerfed. I distinctly remember either Geoff or Kaplan mention lowering the damage to 90. I'll miss nading someone once and conc mining to get a quick kill but eh.

    The last time they used the PTR to test anything out was the Symmetra rework, and they repeatedly bemoan and whine that no one plays PTR because it doesn't reward the player anything (chests, exp, even giving feedback feels useless).
    Last edited by NoiseTank13; 2017-08-11 at 10:34 PM.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    No. He did not.



    No he is not. This isn't an MMO where the "tank" had ways of maintaining aggro and forcing people to attack them. He was put in that category because of his high HP pool where Kaplan himself said the categories aren't meant to be rigidly defined (Hi Symmetra). He has no tools to actively shield his team. He has no tools to provide his team direct support. He "tanked" by hooking and killing threats.
    Actually he did. The small hit indicators you are seeing show up whenever you aim even somewhat near your target. It doesn't mean you're going to deal decent damage. And Roadhog's shotgun has the most damage falloff of pretty much any FPS. He should have moved closer to his target for a better chance to hit and much more damage.

    Roadhog is a tank. He is a large beefy target that can tank a ton of hits and self heal himself. He can't exactly be ignored or else you are going to be yanked out of position and shot in the face. His hook also serves as a tanking mechanic to peel off enemies attacking your teammates and bringing them over to you. If killing threats is the only that the qualifies the hero as a tank, then every hero in the damage can be considered a tank.

  19. #39
    The issue with Roadhog is that he charges enemy ult too quickly, he's an insane battery and it completely fucks with the way the game works, especially at higher levels.

    If you soak a ton of bullets as Roadhog, walk away while healing and survive without killing anyone yourself you probably just charged up another Pulse Bomb/Tac Visor/whatever.

    If he wasn't as much of a battery he'd be pickable but right now you can actually feed ult economy with him which is a fairly unique issue, Orisa had this problem too at first. (Still does till some extent)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    Actually he did. The small hit indicators you are seeing show up whenever you aim even somewhat near your target. It doesn't mean you're going to deal decent damage. And Roadhog's shotgun has the most damage falloff of pretty much any FPS. He should have moved closer to his target for a better chance to hit and much more damage.

    Roadhog is a tank. He is a large beefy target that can tank a ton of hits and self heal himself. He can't exactly be ignored or else you are going to be yanked out of position and shot in the face. His hook also serves as a tanking mechanic to peel off enemies attacking your teammates and bringing them over to you. If killing threats is the only that the qualifies the hero as a tank, then every hero in the damage can be considered a tank.
    ... he doesn't do the damage. that's the issue. His threat can be ignored, and none of the flanker/offense types fear him or his hook, so they feel free to farm him for ult and then go for the rest of his team.

    If you refuse to see that, then there's nothing more to be said.
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