1. #1

    Can anyone help with our mages on heroic KJ

    Have noticed that both our mages have a steep drop off in DPS after the transition phases can anyone help with some tips on how to reduce this.

    Here are the logs to our best attempts.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...47&end=5663957

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...46&end=6574304

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by slikvik View Post
    Have noticed that both our mages have a steep drop off in DPS after the transition phases can anyone help with some tips on how to reduce this.

    Here are the logs to our best attempts.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...47&end=5663957

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...46&end=6574304

    Well first, tell that arcane mage to switch to either fire or frost. Prefer fire as frost is decently low on that fight. That fight is way to heavy on movement for Arcane.

    As for the fire mage:
    • Swap Pyromaniac for Firestarter. This basically gives him 2 combustions right at the start of the fight.
    • Swap Mirror Image for Incanter's Flow. MI is better if there is 0 adds at anypoint in the fight. As soon as there are adds, its devalued greatly.
    • Swap Meteor for Kindling. With how long the fight is, Kindling pre 30% is a much stronger choice and allows more combustions.
    • Get 4P T20.
    • Hes either not prepotting or not using 2nd pot.

  3. #3
    tbh your hunters and melees need help before mages.

  4. #4
    What's wrong with the hunters?
    Beside the DK, which melee is low?

  5. #5
    Honestly wouldn't worry about DPS on KJ. If you live through the mechanics you win. By the looks of it, you're dying to not soaking/getting hit by shit.

    E: I did notice your mages are barely using Iceblock though. Are you just having your tanks solo soak the big hits? If so they can double soak and block the debuff.
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2017-08-12 at 08:39 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Demindar View Post
    Well first, tell that arcane mage to switch to either fire or frost. Prefer fire as frost is decently low on that fight. That fight is way to heavy on movement for Arcane.

    As for the fire mage:
    • Swap Pyromaniac for Firestarter. This basically gives him 2 combustions right at the start of the fight.
    • Swap Mirror Image for Incanter's Flow. MI is better if there is 0 adds at anypoint in the fight. As soon as there are adds, its devalued greatly.
    • Swap Meteor for Kindling. With how long the fight is, Kindling pre 30% is a much stronger choice and allows more combustions.
    • Get 4P T20.
    • Hes either not prepotting or not using 2nd pot.
    Ye tell him to switch from the best spec on KJ (Arcane)

    Tell your Arcane mage to catch me on discord or in-game (i will send you my battle net ID and nick on discord). If i say anything about Arcane being good, Frost wanna be gonna flame again

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    Honestly wouldn't worry about DPS on KJ. If you live through the mechanics you win. By the looks of it, you're dying to not soaking/getting hit by shit.

    E: I did notice your mages are barely using Iceblock though. Are you just having your tanks solo soak the big hits? If so they can double soak and block the debuff.
    Yes the mechanics is ultimately the issue, but in an attempt too cut down unnecessary mechanics we are making sure that people are pulling the appropriate DPS and if not then the reasons why.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    Honestly wouldn't worry about DPS on KJ. If you live through the mechanics you win. By the looks of it, you're dying to not soaking/getting hit by shit.

    E: I did notice your mages are barely using Iceblock though. Are you just having your tanks solo soak the big hits? If so they can double soak and block the debuff.
    DPS helps greatly in getting through phase 2 without the horrible overlaps, and getting thru the adds without blowing all ur healing CDs. There's a minimum group dps that really needs to be achieved if you want to be able to consistently hit phase 3.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by slikvik View Post
    Yes the mechanics is ultimately the issue, but in an attempt too cut down unnecessary mechanics we are making sure that people are pulling the appropriate DPS and if not then the reasons why.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHandsB View Post
    DPS helps greatly in getting through phase 2 without the horrible overlaps, and getting thru the adds without blowing all ur healing CDs. There's a minimum group dps that really needs to be achieved if you want to be able to consistently hit phase 3.
    Yup, and it looks like they should be capable with the DPS they are doing, they're only about 5-8 seconds behind my guild's first KJ HC kill going by the phases, and that's including dead people. Everyone staying alive and actually doing tactics will be more than enough for them to get through it, especially considering they'll have more cooldowns than we had.

    As long as you're not getting adds spawn right before the dark phase (in which case, stop DPS on the boss, kill the adds, then phase it) you should be more than fine. Have your Hunters call out where Illidan spawns and play it safe during the dark phase to keep everyone alive, it's an easy kill.
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2017-08-13 at 12:13 AM.

  10. #10
    Warchief
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,108
    Quote Originally Posted by Caath View Post
    Ye tell him to switch from the best spec on KJ (Arcane)

    Tell your Arcane mage to catch me on discord or in-game (i will send you my battle net ID and nick on discord). If i say anything about Arcane being good, Frost wanna be gonna flame again
    What makes Arcane the best spec for KJ? I'm not trying to troll you, I'm genuinely asking because I'm having a hard time seeing how it could be better than fire
    Sylvaeres-Azkial-Pailerth @Proudmoore

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Azkial View Post
    What makes Arcane the best spec for KJ? I'm not trying to troll you, I'm genuinely asking because I'm having a hard time seeing how it could be better than fire
    This fight is perfectly designed for Arcane mage Short burst AoE phases with adds that line up with cds. Inter phase where you do no damage so you can regen mana. And - at least on hc - there is almost no movement. And Arcane is perfect to push boss past 40% so all mechanics do not line up at some point.
    Last edited by Caath; 2017-08-13 at 02:11 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Caath View Post
    Ye tell him to switch from the best spec on KJ (Arcane)

    Tell your Arcane mage to catch me on discord or in-game (i will send you my battle net ID and nick on discord). If i say anything about Arcane being good, Frost wanna be gonna flame again
    Sounds like they're trying to kill the boss, not have one of their mages ignore mechanics so that they can parse.

  13. #13
    it's not like playing arcane is padding if you can drop the adds fast enough that they don't get a second cast off it will be a massive help to the healers
    Kaltra - Vengeance DH Illidan

  14. #14

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by fiestatastic View Post
    Sounds like they're trying to kill the boss, not have one of their mages ignore mechanics so that they can parse.
    At least you didn't call it padding Killing ads that have to be killed before they cast 3 casts is ignoring mechanics for you? You have to be very successful raider then.

    Let me explain why hitting those ads and saving cds as Arcane is important for your raid and overall progression on KJ:
    1. Killing ads faster increases your raid dps on the boss - ads when they appear they are prio target, that means all players in the raid are supposed to switch to them, including classes like rogues, arms warriors, and other strong ST classes. So the longer ads live the more dps they lose on KJ.
    2. Healers pressure - killing ads faster decreases raid heal pressure, that will give your healer more mana to heal, and more space to focus on healing tanks
    3. Arcane design - Arcane almost do not lose dps on KJ while killing the ads, and Arcane can nuke them almost by himself. When I am in the raid, ads lives for around 3-5s, that means I can pop AP a bit earlier, use all AM on KJ, and then switch to ads, while hitting them i still do large amount of dps to KJ due to resonance. And after they are dead i have 3 AM stacks backs to hit KJ again. This way I am decreasing the time we need to kill ads and switch back to KJ to minimum, while even increasing my dps on KJ.

    To sum up, because there is so few Arcane players, people do not know that Arcane is the best for bursting AoE targets, even more of them do not know that Arcane almost do not lose ST dps when doing that. That is why you often see Fire mages assigned to that role even though they lose much more dps on main target, while their AoE burst is much lower (fire is better for sustained aoe).

    Ps.Attichng log as reference to what I am saying. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...97&end=5331505
    Last edited by Caath; 2017-08-14 at 08:01 AM.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord Fayenoor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Land of Far Beyond
    Posts
    929
    From our first kill last week, the general DPS requriements for the fight are as follows:

    1. Shouldn't get 2nd Armageddon in Phase 1. So push him to 80% before he does second Arma.
    2. Push him to 40% before 2nd tank add spawn in Phase 2.

    Ideally, you would to lust on Phase 2. Group up all the reflection adds and nuke (with that many ret paladins and other cleave classes you have, they should melt before they get their second cast.)

    The 2nd set of reflections in Phase 2 coincides with an Armageddon. But you still need to have your reflections stack up in melee for this. Have others soak Arma. You want to pop CDs for this (like darkness, rallying cry) and healing CD.

    Regarding your mages's DPS - I think they are fine. You should not look at overall DPS for this encounter. But look at critical moments.

    Also, your DH is a complete d-bag -- he soaked only 9 Armageddon in 23 wipes.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ulty=4&wipes=1
    Basically he just stood on the boss and nuked away letting others handle the mechanics in spite of being one of the most mobile melee.

    Your arcane mage, whom you are calling out for being bad, soaked 36 - which is darn good.

    Focus on mechanics and fixing that. Don't worry about DPS as long as you make those key transitions.

    Also with that many hunters, mages shouldn't need to soak any of the big Arma at all. They can turtle them all.

    Here's damage done to "Wailing Reflection" - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...es=1&target=82

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caath View Post
    Ps.Attichng log as reference to what I am saying. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...97&end=5331505

    Thank you for linking the log. It is an excellent example on how to completely pad as Arcane and just ST turret the boss to rank with AoE burst on wails.
    Case in point:
    Arma soaks:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=234310
    Arcane mage soaked once (probably during intermission)

    Damage to adds:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1505&target=95
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The main function of Mythic mode for most players is to act as a reminder that, compared to that 1%, they suck.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Demindar View Post
    Well first, tell that arcane mage to switch to either fire or frost. Prefer fire as frost is decently low on that fight. That fight is way to heavy on movement for Arcane.

    As for the fire mage:
    • Swap Pyromaniac for Firestarter. This basically gives him 2 combustions right at the start of the fight.
    • Swap Mirror Image for Incanter's Flow. MI is better if there is 0 adds at anypoint in the fight. As soon as there are adds, its devalued greatly.
    • Swap Meteor for Kindling. With how long the fight is, Kindling pre 30% is a much stronger choice and allows more combustions.
    • Get 4P T20.
    • Hes either not prepotting or not using 2nd pot.
    Switching to kindling when they are using the belt and not lusting in p3 devalues it greatly. Based on their raid damage they are going to be tight on killing him anyways. 30% and down is going to be there real struggle.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayenoor View Post
    Thank you for linking the log. It is an excellent example on how to completely pad as Arcane and just ST turret the boss to rank with AoE burst on wails.
    Case in point:
    Arma soaks:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=234310
    Arcane mage soaked once (probably during intermission)

    Damage to adds:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1505&target=95
    Killed boss once when raid is up for 9 weeks, and you are already acting as someone who knows the best what is going on the fight. If you assign raid members to specific areas (u did that right?) soaking armageddon is up to pure rng, as you soak it only in the area assigned to you (or if someone ask to help). That helps preventing wipes due to not soaked pools, and increases raid dps. So there may be runs where you soak once or twice per kill. Moreover, you can soak once per 2 armageddons so if you have like 6 total, you can soak 3 max, and if there is one big soak assigned to you, you soak 2, if one of those 2 you don't have to soak... yeah. I hope you see how this work now. That is how you play the boss to kill him.

    You should also learn the definicion of padding, you are overusing it

    I linked that log not to show how to get top dps in guild, but to show how dmg to ads does not decrease dmg to boss (did you even check it mr. wanna be?). And to explain how Arcane should play dmg-wise on the boss, and not to show how to do mechanics... btw. Soaking armageddon does not decrease your dps, most of the time.

    Ps. If that is your log (appears so) you soaked only 2 arms... and you blame others for turretting boss https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=234310
    Ps2. You may also check my early kills, i am sure that i had some kills with 922ilvl where i soaked few armageddon and still did over 1m dps.
    Last edited by Caath; 2017-08-15 at 09:47 AM.

  19. #19
    Arcane is fine for KJ heroic and he should stick with it (unlikely in mythic though, no arcane mage kills on that one yet to see).

    The only drawback of arcane is that is has lower boss dmg than fire and frost (but not too far behind). They only rank thanks to excessive AoE on adds which imho are a non-factor in this encounter, so yeah I would consider it padding. Since other classes can do the same without the loss of boss dmg. As a raid leader I would prefer more boss dmg to push the boss before the harder mechanics kick in. So yes I would prefer fire/frost but without the proper legendaries and AP, forcing someone to swap spec will make his performance worse. He probably can output more boss dmg as arcane with optimal gear, legendaries and AP than as frost with these factors being sub-par.

    Regarding cooldown usage.

    As a frost mage I use my iceblock early in the fight to soak 2 small meteors in a row but then hold it for phase 3.
    It is there where i kite the fire orbs into the rift and iceblock when both that AND the pillars hit.
    We have our tanks and BoPs handle the big meteors and obviously soak small ones.

    In addition a little trick. You can cancel the fire beam if it targets you as a mage by using invisibility.
    I personally try to do this when the fire beam is paired with another ability and harder to manage like when it is paired with singularity or armageddon.

    We have 5 mages in our guild and generally we are all low on dps on this boss. Simple reason is that we soak everything ranging from armageddon, beams and orbs. Our uptime is going to be lower than melee tunneling boss 24/7 or anything with DoTs and mobility. Just focus on your job and getting the mechanics down and the boss will drop.

    It is hard as a raid leader to tell how much boss dmg (single target dmg) you need. In the first phase it does not matter much as long as you phase to boss around the singularity in the middle. But in the second phase you want to bloodlust, use potions and force the boss to a phase 3 transition before you reach the lethal combo (can't remember which one, we only saw it a few times on our first night with early deaths).
    Last edited by Celestraza; 2017-08-16 at 08:54 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    In addition a little trick. You can cancel the fire beam if it targets you as a mage by using invisibility.
    I totally am trying this next KJ. That's an amazing tip.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •