What's worse: freedom of speech or controlling of freedom of speech

[Mayhem]

The Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) said in a report released last week that politically and racially motivated crimes by the far right hit a record high of more than 20,000 in 2008. - http://content.time.com/time/world/a...949518,00.html

You were saying?

I'll say it again: far-right violence is not limited to the United States. Even countries with hate-speech laws and banned political parties deal with it. I haven't claimed it doesn't exist in the U.S. or that it isn't a problem we have to deal with. I just don't buy that the First Amendment has anything to do with it. That's a projection on your part and you still have all of your work ahead of you to prove that connection. I only looked into far-right violence in Germany, the center point of the migrant crisis, and found far-right attacks increasing prior (in the link above) to spikes in immigration in the past few years. It appears political violence is a little more complicated than you originally believed, wouldn't you agree?

Since i never claimed far-right violence is limited to the US or that it's only because of the first amendment i don't know where you're trying to go with this. I simply gave you examples that explain what i was saying. Looks like it went over your head.

I don't think you understand what a NY liberal is. I also think you mistake incompetence for malevolence.

Well it probably has little to nothing to do with being liberal. So Trump is just a far-right nationalist by mistake?

[downnola]

Since i never claimed far-right violence is limited to the US or that it's only because of the first amendment i don't know where you're trying to go with this. I simply gave you examples that explain what i was saying. Looks like it went over your head.

No, I think you just make connections that you can't back up and shift goal posts all over the place instead of coming to grips with the possibility that you're wrong.

Well it probably has little to nothing to do with being liberal. So Trump is just a far-right nationalist by mistake?

Again, you don't know what a NY liberal-type entails, so why you insist on dragging this conversation out when you missed my broader point is mind-boggling.

[Mittens]

Uh be careful you're going to summon kalis with this.

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That's funny coming from someone from the US.

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"The Southern Poverty Law Center, a nonprofit that researches U.S. extremism, reported 900 bias-related incidents against minorities in the first 10 days after Trump’s election—compared to several dozen in a normal week—and the group found that many of the harassers invoked the then-president-elect’s name. Similarly, the Anti-Defamation League, a nonprofit that tracks anti-Semitism, recorded an 86 percent rise in anti-Semitic incidents in the first three months of 2017."

"Data my team collected at the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point show that the significant growth in far-right violence in recent years is happening at the base of the iceberg. While the main reasons for that are still not clear, it is important to remember that changes in societal norms are usually reflected in behavioral changes. Hence, it is more than reasonable to suspect that extremist individuals engage in such activities because they sense that their views are enjoying growing social legitimacy and acceptance, which is emboldening them to act on their bigotry."
http://www.newsweek.com/homegrown-te...tremism-619724

https://www.splcenter.org/20161129/t...rmath-election
https://www.adl.org/news/press-relea...so-far-in-2017
https://info.publicintelligence.net/...ntFarRight.pdf



No but as the numbers show there is a clear rise since the election.



Well you are free to ignore reality.

The increase in far-right terrorism in europe was/is based to a certain degree on the migrant crisis and how it was handled by the governments and the media. One of the highest increases however was in the UK after brexit, when people felt their racist views are backed by society and confirmed by the vote to leave. That country had little to nothing to do with the migrant crisis.



Doesn't matter what he says, it's what he does and what his agenda is. He is far from a NY liberal, probably as far from a liberal as can be.

Exhibit A: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN18J2HJ

Ah so whataboutism?

[Mayhem]

No, I think you just make connections that you can't back up and shift goal posts all over the place instead of coming to grips with the possibility that you're wrong.

I backed them up, you even quoted that post, of course you ignored the sources and instead argued against something i never claimed. Somehow in your world that is me moving goal posts. The best part, you yourself came up with an example highlighting what i was saying just from a different country, briliant move.

Again, you don't know what a NY liberal-type entails, so why you insist on dragging this conversation out when you missed my broader point is mind-boggling.

Did you figure that out after or before you read "well it probably ...", so what is a NY liberal-type?

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Ah so whataboutism?

Well i thought going down to your level would help but apparently that's also the wrong approach.

[Mittens]

I backed them up, you even quoted that post, of course you ignored the sources and instead argued against something i never claimed. Somehow in your world that is me moving goal posts. The best part, you yourself came up with an example highlighting what i was saying just from a different country, briliant move.



Did you figure that out after or before you read "well it probably ...", so what is a NY liberal-type?

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Well i thought going down to your level would help but apparently that's also the wrong approach.

Dude, you are free to call me on my bs. Using whataboutism is pretty pathetic though.

[Mayhem]

Dude, you are free to call me on my bs. Using whataboutism is pretty pathetic though.

Well i have no idea what point you were trying to make.

You said france moved to the right, as a somewhat counter to the US moved to the right, by voting for a nazi, while in the national assembly they didn't move to the right, that however doesn't count because 1/3 of them voted for a nazi, all the while the US elected a fascist.

[downnola]

I backed them up, you even quoted that post, of course you ignored the sources and instead argued against something i never claimed. Somehow in your world that is me moving goal posts. The best part, you yourself came up with an example highlighting what i was saying just from a different country, briliant move.



Did you figure that out after or before you read "well it probably ...", so what is a NY liberal-type?

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Well i thought going down to your level would help but apparently that's also the wrong approach.

Your argument is that the U.S. cultivates an environment of hate and violence because it allows certain views to be expressed. Your links show that far-right violence exists in the U.S. and has increased since the election of Trump.

I haven't made claims that far right violence doesn't exist or hasn't increased. I'm contending with the claim that free expression has something to do with that violence or makes it worse. Your links don't prove that at all. Whenever I point out that far right violence exists in places with hate speech laws, and is getting worse, you try to maneuver the conversation around to avoid that fact.

Unless you plan on developing an argument that supports your initial claims, I don't see any reason to keep repeating myself.

[Mayhem]

You're argument is that the U.S. cultivates an environment of hate and violence because it allows certain views to be expressed. Your links show that far-right violence exists in the U.S. and has increased since the election of Trump.

I haven't made claims that far right violence doesn't exist or hasn't increased. I'm contending with the claim that free expression has something to do with that violence or makes it worse. Your links don't prove that at all. Whenever I point out that far right violence exists in places with hate speech laws, and is getting worse, you try to maneuver the conversation around to avoid that fact.

Unless you plan on developing an argument that supports your initial claims, I don't see any reason to keep repeating myself.

I'll just requote what i already quoted since you obviously ignored it.

"Hence, it is more than reasonable to suspect that extremist individuals engage in such activities because they sense that their views are enjoying growing social legitimacy and acceptance, which is emboldening them to act on their bigotry."

Now i'm going to quote your own link from germany that highlights the very same thing:

"According to the BKA report, formerly communist eastern Germany has become a fertile breeding ground for far-right extremism. Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, many eastern regions are still struggling with high unemployment and deep-rooted social problems, and residents have increasingly turned to far-right political parties like the National Democratic Party (NPD). Attacks are common there too. Two years ago, a 50-person mob yelling, "Foreigners out!" chased eight Indians through the streets of the eastern town of Mügeln before brutally attacking them in a pizzeria while townspeople looked on. Fourteen people were injured in the melee, including all eight Indians and two police officers, according to media reports. "

You're coming across as if you're believing that propaganda isn't a real thing and that it can't accomplish anything anyway.

[Felya]

I'll just requote what i already quoted since you obviously ignored it.

"Hence, it is more than reasonable to suspect that extremist individuals engage in such activities because they sense that their views are enjoying growing social legitimacy and acceptance, which is emboldening them to act on their bigotry."

Now i'm going to quote your own link from germany that highlights the very same thing:

"According to the BKA report, formerly communist eastern Germany has become a fertile breeding ground for far-right extremism. Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, many eastern regions are still struggling with high unemployment and deep-rooted social problems, and residents have increasingly turned to far-right political parties like the National Democratic Party (NPD). Attacks are common there too. Two years ago, a 50-person mob yelling, "Foreigners out!" chased eight Indians through the streets of the eastern town of Mügeln before brutally attacking them in a pizzeria while townspeople looked on. Fourteen people were injured in the melee, including all eight Indians and two police officers, according to media reports. "

You're coming across as if you're believing that propaganda isn't a real thing and that it can't accomplish anything anyway.

An example directly from Bannon and something we should be familiar with, is Chines gold sellers in WoW. Do you know of any xenophobia that is as normalized, as bitching about Chines gold sellers in WoW? This is what Bannon saw and tried to bring into 'real life'. Even though his company was one of the largest contributors to gold selling in WoW, you never saw people bitching about Bannon, but almost none stop bitching about Chinese...

Steve Bannon Saw the ‘Monster Power’ of Angry Gamers While Farming Gold in World of Warcraft

http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/07/s...d-farming.html

Per Green’s book, [Bannon's] time at IGE “introduced him to a hidden world, burrowed deep into his psyche, and provided a kind of conceptual framework that he would later draw on to build up the audience for Breitbart News, and then to help marshal the online armies of trolls and activists that overran national politicians and helped give rise to Donald Trump.”

When they came for Chines gold sellers, you said nothing...

[Ravenblade]

An example directly from Bannon and something we should be familiar with, is Chines gold sellers in WoW. Do you know of any xenophobia that is as normalized, as bitching about Chines gold sellers in WoW? This is what Bannon saw and tried to bring into 'real life'. Even though his company was one of the largest contributors to gold selling in WoW, you never saw people bitching about Bannon, but almost none stop bitching about Chinese...

Steve Bannon Saw the ‘Monster Power’ of Angry Gamers While Farming Gold in World of Warcraft

http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/07/s...d-farming.html



When they came for Chines gold sellers, you said nothing...

Now I know why fierce Trumpsters and vocal alt-righter always had this "My shaman got nerfed!" vibe with them.

[downnola]

I'll just requote what i already quoted since you obviously ignored it.

"Hence, it is more than reasonable to suspect that extremist individuals engage in such activities because they sense that their views are enjoying growing social legitimacy and acceptance, which is emboldening them to act on their bigotry."

Now i'm going to quote your own link from germany that highlights the very same thing:

"According to the BKA report, formerly communist eastern Germany has become a fertile breeding ground for far-right extremism. Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, many eastern regions are still struggling with high unemployment and deep-rooted social problems, and residents have increasingly turned to far-right political parties like the National Democratic Party (NPD). Attacks are common there too. Two years ago, a 50-person mob yelling, "Foreigners out!" chased eight Indians through the streets of the eastern town of Mügeln before brutally attacking them in a pizzeria while townspeople looked on. Fourteen people were injured in the melee, including all eight Indians and two police officers, according to media reports. "

You're coming across as if you're believing that propaganda isn't a real thing and that it can't accomplish anything anyway.

I'm perfectly aware that ideology and propaganda are real concepts and play a part in influencing behavior. However, pointing out that hate crimes in Germany coinciding with the rise of far-right political parties, despite hate speech laws and outlawed Nazi parties, strengthens the point I'm trying to make; not yours.

You still haven't made any progress in proving that free expression plays a significant part in causing situations where people drive vehicles into counter-protesters. What's your excuse for far-right violence in Europe then? We've clearly established that far-right violence doesn't need freely expressed propaganda to fester. Perhaps that's because you can't eradicate ideology and propaganda by attempting to outlaw it. Perhaps political violence requires a better counter-strategy than censorship.

[Krigaren]

Things are looking upwards, I think most people finally understood this concept.

It's looking upward in MMO-C, since it seems like there are enough people who understand the constitution well enough to point out what the 1A protects, sure.

But there are plenty of people (like the person I responded to) who still think "freedom of speech" is an all-encompassing right that applies to everyone, in every situation.

[Mayhem]

I'm perfectly aware that ideology and propaganda are real concepts and play a part in influencing behavior. However, pointing out that hate crimes in Germany coinciding with the rise of far-right political parties, despite hate speech laws and outlawed Nazi parties, strengthens the point I'm trying to make; not yours.

You still haven't made any progress in proving that free expression plays a significant part in causing situations where people drive vehicles into counter-protesters. What's your excuse for far-right violence in Europe then? We've clearly established that far-right violence doesn't need freely expressed propaganda to fester. Perhaps that's because you can't eradicate ideology and propaganda by attempting to outlaw it. Perhaps political violence requires a better counter-strategy than censorship.

Far-right propaganda can be freely expressed to a certain degree in europe as well. Also there's a thing called the internet. The NPD isn't outlawed. Anything else i can assist you with? I mean it's even in your linked article that they might be a driving force behind the rise in violence...

But since you just ignore the stuff i link, why should i repeat it a third time?

Oh and what is a NY liberal-type?

[Slant]

It's looking upward in MMO-C, since it seems like there are enough people who understand the constitution well enough to point out what the 1A protects, sure.

But there are plenty of people (like the person I responded to) who still think "freedom of speech" is an all-encompassing right that applies to everyone, in every situation.

pick your battles

[downnola]

Far-right propaganda can be freely expressed to a certain degree in europe as well. Also there's a thing called the internet. The NPD isn't outlawed. Anything else i can assist you with? I mean it's even in your linked article that they might be a driving force behind the rise in violence...

But since you just ignore the stuff i link, why should i repeat it a third time?

Oh and what is a NY liberal-type?

I did read the links you posted. There's a correlation between far-right violence and elections. How does that support your argument that the First Amendment, and the culture behind it, encourages far-right violence when countries in Europe, Germany in particular, experience the same thing? The funny thing about you throwing accusations about me not reading your links, is that I don't think you've read the things you've posted either. If you did you'd notice that the CTC study you linked actually goes into detail how society has weakened the KKK over the past 100 years by leaving them in financial ruins for their actions; something I pointed out earlier in the thread. Who the hell needs nuance though, when you can just make broad sweeping claims about free expression and its relation to American society and handwave anything said in response to you.

A NY liberal-type tend to be neo-liberals with strong authoritarian and elitist policy prescriptions. Michael Bloomberg is one of the more notorious examples of such.

[Mayhem]

I did read the links you posted. There's a correlation between far-right violence and elections. How does that support your argument that the First Amendment, and the culture behind it, encourages far-right violence when countries in Europe, Germany in particular, experience the same thing? The funny thing about you throwing accusations about me not reading your links, is that I don't think you've read the things you've posted either. If you did you'd notice that the CTC study you linked actually goes into detail how society has weakened the KKK over the past 100 years by leaving them in financial ruins for their actions; something I pointed out earlier in the thread. Who the hell needs nuance though, when you can just make broad sweeping claims about free expression and its relation to American society and handwave anything said in response to you.

Quote me where i wrote that the first amendment and culture behind it encourages far-right violence. The funny thing about throwing accusations around in a forum is people actually can go back and read up on what was written and see the bullshit people come up with if they have no argument left. Oh and btw. the part about where society has weakened the KKK over the past 100 years is a positive example of group dynamics, so not really against my point at all but how could you know that, you don't read stuff either that or you don't understand it.

A NY liberal-type tend to be neo-liberals with strong authoritarian and elitist policy prescriptions. Michael Bloomberg is one of the more notorious examples of such.

An authoritarian liberal? Forcing people to have freedoms? What is this? Can you give an example of a law or proposed law by the trump administration that would explain this? Because going by the definition of the words, that makes no sense whatsoever.

[Mittens]

Well i have no idea what point you were trying to make.

You said france moved to the right, as a somewhat counter to the US moved to the right, by voting for a nazi, while in the national assembly they didn't move to the right, that however doesn't count because 1/3 of them voted for a nazi, all the while the US elected a fascist.

I never made the claim that the US did not moved to the right or pointed to Europe as a justification.

You said this:

What hard-right party in europe got significant gains because of the immigrant crisis?

I said that the fact that a far right party advanced a lot in the general election was a gain.

A little bit of honesty goes a long way when discussing with someone else.

[Mayhem]

I said that the fact that a far right party advanced a lot in the general election was a gain.

A little bit of honesty goes a long way when discussing with someone else.

The party you were talking about however didn't advance a lot in the general election.

[Mittens]

The party you were talking about however didn't advance a lot in the general election.

They defeated the two major parties and received, even more, votes after the first round. The fact that a borderline nazi party even reached to that point is significant. BTW we are back to square one. So.... this is kinda pointless.

[Mayhem]

They defeated the two major parties and received, even more, votes after the first round. The fact that a borderline nazi party even reached to that point is significant. BTW we are back to square one. So.... this is kinda pointless.

Yes it is kind of pointless as you are talking about the presidential election not the parliamentary election. Only in the second one do parties recieve votes and their gain was far from significant, that you are unable to understand this is worrying.