Skittish is a terribly designed affix for Havoc

[BiggestNoob]

I think this is probably the worst affix design wise currently in the game. There's no "playing around it" as a Havoc DH, it literally just requires you to do nothing for a long time on trash pulls. You need some form of misdirect currently to avoid pulling threat, which isn't a problem for most other classes in the game. The closest equivalent to us is a rogue which has threat reduction and tricks so never has an issue with this affix.

Havoc wasn't around when threat was relevant, which is why I suspect it has no answer for this.

Blizzard either needs to give Havoc some form of threat management like rogues have or drastically reduce the threat that CS/Annihilation generate. Here's how a typical pull of 4-5 mobs goes in a Skittish dungeon:

1. Wait about 10 seconds to engage.
2. Pop FOTI, glaives, EB, Death Sweep, then fel rush x2 if there are enough targets (or save to save your life when you pull threat)
3. Tab target Annihilation spam because more than 1 on a single target instantly rips threat
4. Anxiously pop Blur, instead of saving it for relevant mechanics
5. Get a few good high crits, pull threat on 2-3 targets, get instantly 1-shot on 20+ keys, or take a hit and run away
6. Return to the pack, start hitting the next target and hope you don't rip threat on that one

It's stupid. It's not "bad tank" either. 935+ geared tanks, even bears short of popping incarn all lose threat to a well geared Havoc. It's not as much of an issue on bosses, but I definitely can't even pug or help with low keys because doing 2+ million DPS to a single target (and 1+ to all other targets) generally rips threat on anyone but a very competent tank. And "low geared" tanks at 910 if they miss even a couple of GCDs on bosses, I pull those too.

Blizzard design in 2017, perhaps the biggest meme of them all. At least this means we can reliably Havoc tank on easy content.

[Madh4tter]

I haven't seen that kind of problem yet :/
i went demo build this week because of fortified as such i had meta up a whole lot which in turn granted me alot of leech.

arms warri doesnt have threat management either does it?

[Kash6]

One of the many benefits of running demonic in Mythic+, the leach from soul rending will save your ass so many times when you pull aggro with skittish.

[BiggestNoob]

One of the many benefits of running demonic in Mythic+, the leach from soul rending will save your ass so many times when you pull aggro with skittish.

That doesn't work on 20+ keys, you just die instantly. Even a bolstered mob from a 15 instantly 1-shots. I can solo most of the things in +9 keys so pulling threat in those isn't an issue, and Blur + leech tanking bosses I can stay alive long enough for the tank to taunt easily, but this is only going to get worse as we continue to outscale tank damage and therefore threat. This wasn't as much of an issue at like 900-910, but at almost 940 it's a constant struggle. I can't imagine what it's going to be like in Argus gear doing 2.5-3 million bursts ST and upwards of 10+ million on trash packs in M+.

And yeah, I can't possibly run CB for anything in M+, get decent procs and every tank even with CDs up is going to lose threat. Rogues don't have this issue because they can tricks and they generate a lot less threat by default.

[Khiyone]

The threat modifier in Skittish is +150% (normally 900%). It's not even clear what sort of AoE DPS you are doing from your description (Havoc's AoE doesn't scale linearly with target count at all as AoE is tied to CDs like you are saying). As far as single target DPS goes, a competent 935 tank (unless it's a DK I guess) should at the very least be ending a 1.5m boss fight with 700k-800k DPS, which is already around the threshold needed to keep threat just from damage against your 2m DPS - then you factor taunts (triple threat for ~3s, spaced out appropriately to account for diminishing returns) and there really should be no issue there. Also, actually good 935 tanks playing a demon hunter/paladin (aka having burst on pull) will be doing 1m+ dps on most bosses at the fight lengths you'll be seeing in typically pugged key levels. So, you should definitely try to find better tanks.

Skittish can be an issue with warriors that are capable of AoE burst that eclipses Havoc's, but assuming you are playing with someone that actually knows how to optimize their damage while tanking and is using trinkets like moonglaives to help with that, there shouldn't be too many problems with Havoc in particular.

[BiggestNoob]

The threat modifier in Skittish is +150% (normally 900%). It's not even clear what sort of AoE DPS you are doing from your description (Havoc's AoE doesn't scale linearly with target count at all as AoE is tied to CDs like you are saying). As far as single target DPS goes, a competent 935 tank (unless it's a DK I guess) should at the very least be ending a 1.5m boss fight with 700k-800k DPS, which is already around the threshold needed to keep threat just from damage against your 2m DPS - then you factor taunts (triple threat for ~3s, spaced out appropriately to account for diminishing returns) and there really should be no issue there. Also, actually good 935 tanks playing a demon hunter/paladin (aka having burst on pull) will be doing 1m+ dps on most bosses at the fight lengths you'll be seeing in typically pugged key levels. So, you should definitely try to find better tanks.

Skittish can be an issue with warriors that are capable of AoE burst that eclipses Havoc's, but assuming you are playing with someone that actually knows how to optimize their damage while tanking and is using trinkets like moonglaives to help with that, there shouldn't be too many problems with Havoc in particular.

The problem isn't bosses, it's trash. The only thing that can hold threat on trash is a bear with incarn. I guarantee you if you do a M+ with me I will pull threat on every single trash pack, even being careful. I'm talking about top M+ tanks, and competent raiding tanks who run DPS trinkets and get 99%+ on every fight.

The problem is that once our AoE is done, what we have left is extremely hard hitting ST nukes in burst windows. This is like sub rogue but again they have tricks and threat reduction. The AoE doesn't pull threat typically, it just offsets the tank's threat, so a few good Annihilation crits put you well beyond the threat that any tank will generate.

[VooDsXo]

I think this is probably the worst affix design wise currently in the game. There's no "playing around it" as a Havoc DH, it literally just requires you to do nothing for a long time on trash pulls. You need some form of misdirect currently to avoid pulling threat, which isn't a problem for most other classes in the game. The closest equivalent to us is a rogue which has threat reduction and tricks so never has an issue with this affix.

Havoc wasn't around when threat was relevant, which is why I suspect it has no answer for this.

Blizzard either needs to give Havoc some form of threat management like rogues have or drastically reduce the threat that CS/Annihilation generate. Here's how a typical pull of 4-5 mobs goes in a Skittish dungeon:

1. Wait about 10 seconds to engage.
2. Pop FOTI, glaives, EB, Death Sweep, then fel rush x2 if there are enough targets (or save to save your life when you pull threat)
3. Tab target Annihilation spam because more than 1 on a single target instantly rips threat
4. Anxiously pop Blur, instead of saving it for relevant mechanics
5. Get a few good high crits, pull threat on 2-3 targets, get instantly 1-shot on 20+ keys, or take a hit and run away
6. Return to the pack, start hitting the next target and hope you don't rip threat on that one

It's stupid. It's not "bad tank" either. 935+ geared tanks, even bears short of popping incarn all lose threat to a well geared Havoc. It's not as much of an issue on bosses, but I definitely can't even pug or help with low keys because doing 2+ million DPS to a single target (and 1+ to all other targets) generally rips threat on anyone but a very competent tank. And "low geared" tanks at 910 if they miss even a couple of GCDs on bosses, I pull those too.

Blizzard design in 2017, perhaps the biggest meme of them all. At least this means we can reliably Havoc tank on easy content.

1. Use Threat Plates
2. Blur generates Fury
3. Shadowmeld if you're Nelf
4. Aoe stun????
5. Darkness??????????????
6 Literally you have a bad tank if he is losing aggro that often that its something you need to post about period, end of story, 935 ilvl doesn't mean good player it means they have gear.

[Occar]

The threat modifier in Skittish is +150% (normally 900%). It's not even clear what sort of AoE DPS you are doing from your description (Havoc's AoE doesn't scale linearly with target count at all as AoE is tied to CDs like you are saying). As far as single target DPS goes, a competent 935 tank (unless it's a DK I guess) should at the very least be ending a 1.5m boss fight with 700k-800k DPS, which is already around the threshold needed to keep threat just from damage against your 2m DPS - then you factor taunts (triple threat for ~3s, spaced out appropriately to account for diminishing returns) and there really should be no issue there. Also, actually good 935 tanks playing a demon hunter/paladin (aka having burst on pull) will be doing 1m+ dps on most bosses at the fight lengths you'll be seeing in typically pugged key levels. So, you should definitely try to find better tanks.

Skittish can be an issue with warriors that are capable of AoE burst that eclipses Havoc's, but assuming you are playing with someone that actually knows how to optimize their damage while tanking and is using trinkets like moonglaives to help with that, there shouldn't be too many problems with Havoc in particular.

Demonic AoE does scale pretty linearly with target count when you run the eyebeam legendary.

Last week I ran demonic with the head and new ring (with chaos cleave). It worked out pretty well. Generally when I pulled off the tank I was in meta so I didn't care.

[Saverem]

Do M+ in Demonic build and you shouldn't have any issues.


Also, if you keep pulling aggro from a particular tank, consider getting a better tank.

[Tech614]

Skittish is nothing like it used to be and quite forgettable now.

Get a better tank that knows how to equip for the week and prioritizes burst threat on pulls(for example cind is amazing for VDH skittish, no one will ever pull threat off you period with an IS->IA->SB combo on pull with cind).

Monks don't even need to equip shit or do anything special for it as Keg Smash is already ridiculous aoe burst threat. Druid shouldn't have much issue with using thrash relics and legos, Prot Paladin laughed at it even before it was nerfed.

Safe to say if nerfed skittish is being an issue, it's probably on your tank and not the affix.

[BiggestNoob]

1. Use Threat Plates

This doesn't do anything, if you're tabbing to targets you haven't even touched and if the tank is spending GCDs on AoE abilities to hold threat on everything and isn't running a CD to hold ST threat, this doesn't do anything except tell you when to stop to avoid pulling threat, which isn't fixing the problem.

2. Blur generates Fury

No it doesn't.

3. Shadowmeld if you're Nelf

That doesn't drop threat, because as soon as you break the stealth you have 100% of your previous threat. I'm also Horde.

4. Aoe stun????

5 seconds, then you die or run away. Success?

To elaborate why you generally don't want to do this: constantly stunning for defensive measure is usually best served for saving the tank in high M+, because ideally you use it to interrupt certain abilities that will 1-shot a teammate or the entire group (short of having other CC that can do the job better, this is especially ideal in cases where multiple targets are using Really Bad Shit (TM)). For this reason it's not ideal to stun on CD or whenever you want (except when the mobs are going to die or aren't threatening to generate fragments). This is also risky on a lot of trash because it causes them to sync abilities, either leap effects that will combo and 1-shot people, or large hits to the tank which will instantly kill your tank (normally they're staggered on the pull).

5. Darkness??????????????

This is a 20% chance to mitigate a single hit, it also does nothing for threat.

6 Literally you have a bad tank if he is losing aggro that often that its something you need to post about period, end of story, 935 ilvl doesn't mean good player it means they have gear.

You don't understand at all how any of the above mentioned things work and you're telling me, the current US #1 Havoc DH in M+ that I'm playing with bad tanks? Nice.

Do M+ in Demonic build and you shouldn't have any issues.


Also, if you keep pulling aggro from a particular tank, consider getting a better tank.

I am running Demonic, and that's just as bad as CB, but worse, because on trash you get repeated Demonic windows which is some AoE followed by huge ST burst. And there aren't better tanks.

Skittish is nothing like it used to be and quite forgettable now.

Get a better tank that knows how to equip for the week and prioritizes burst threat on pulls(for example cind is amazing for VDH skittish, no one will ever pull threat off you period with an IS->IA->SB combo on pull with cind).

Apparently you either haven't ever played with a geared DH or you're playing with people who can't sustain 1.6+ million in a M+. Tanks doing max burst AoE with DPS gear don't cover the issue, anything short of an Incarn bear doing more DPS than any of the DPS loses threat to Anni crits even after waiting for threat.

I swear people don't even read the thread.

[Tech614]

Apparently you either haven't ever played with a geared DH or you're playing with people who can't sustain 1.6+ million in a M+. Tanks doing max burst AoE with DPS gear don't cover the issue, anything short of an Incarn bear doing more DPS than any of the DPS loses threat to Anni crits even after waiting for threat.

I swear people don't even read the thread.

The hilarious part is you think an incarn bear is capable of doing the most burst aoe as a tank when Protadin laughs at it and Brewmaster/VDH do similar numbers with no CDs necessary.

Please actually go and tank something before you try to comment on it like you know what you're talking about. Your tanks are bad, period. Stop with the strawman of "you haven't played with a geared DH" when I myself am a geared DH that has all legos for both specs and is 933 in Havoc and 936 in Vengeance. On top of that I also play a lot of other tank specs and actually KNOW what I'm talking about in regards to tanking unlike you who assumes just because a tank has a high ilvl they understand how to maximize aoe pull aggro for skittish.

[PassingBy]

I mean having to watch your aggro and threat so that you don't die to mobs.
Who could've thought of such a stupid mechanic.

[Mikah]

The good side of having different affixes, is that different classes will perform differently depending on the week.

Spriests are mostly shit for M+, but skittish/bolstering/fortified is probably the only time where they will be desirable. Slow ramp up time and even dps on high hp trash mobs preventing too much bolstering is just perfect for these affixes. Considering we are shit every other week compared to DHs, you can suffer once in a while.

[lockedout]

I mean having to watch your aggro and threat so that you don't die to mobs.
Who could've thought of such a stupid mechanic.

I used to have to wand for the first 5-7 seconds on pulls as a warlock at max range.........

[Tech614]

I used to have to wand for the first 5-7 seconds on pulls as a warlock at max range.........

Wait for 5 sunders bro.

[razisgosu]

Never had any issues with havoc demon hunters as a vengeance, bear, or paladin. Sounds like a tank problem if you're pulling that much from them.

[BiggestNoob]

The hilarious part is you think an incarn bear is capable of doing the most burst aoe as a tank when Protadin laughs at it and Brewmaster/VDH do similar numbers with no CDs necessary.

You've just demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all.

The highest burst AoE in the game period is clearly something you can do every pull without CDs!

Thanks for the meme.

Please actually go and tank something before you try to comment on it like you know what you're talking about. Your tanks are bad, period. Stop with the strawman of "you haven't played with a geared DH" when I myself am a geared DH that has all legos for both specs and is 933 in Havoc and 936 in Vengeance. On top of that I also play a lot of other tank specs and actually KNOW what I'm talking about in regards to tanking unlike you who assumes just because a tank has a high ilvl they understand how to maximize aoe pull aggro for skittish.

Please go do 20+ keys against people who can actually do real DPS. I can tell you right now: you're absolutely fucking terrible at Havoc and at tanking and you've been playing with really really shitty players. Feel free to prove me wrong, but we all know you aren't going to.

I mean having to watch your aggro and threat so that you don't die to mobs.
Who could've thought of such a stupid mechanic.

Yeah, it's a great mechanic being the only DPS spec in the game with this issue consistently, while those who only primarily do bursty ST have tools designed specifically to deal with threat. We should definitely just do half DPS so we don't pull threat in timed dungeons. Sounds like a plan.

The good side of having different affixes, is that different classes will perform differently depending on the week.

Spriests are mostly shit for M+, but skittish/bolstering/fortified is probably the only time where they will be desirable. Slow ramp up time and even dps on high hp trash mobs preventing too much bolstering is just perfect for these affixes. Considering we are shit every other week compared to DHs, you can suffer once in a while.

And then there are rogues, warriors, warlocks, balance druids, and mages who don't have any issues any week. But apparently affixes literally being broken for certain specs is good design.

Never had any issues with havoc demon hunters as a vengeance, bear, or paladin. Sounds like a tank problem if you're pulling that much from them.

Stop playing with shitty DPS.

[Madh4tter]

You've just demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all.

The highest burst AoE in the game period is clearly something you can do every pull without CDs!

Thanks for the meme.



Please go do 20+ keys against people who can actually do real DPS. I can tell you right now: you're absolutely fucking terrible at Havoc and at tanking and you've been playing with really really shitty players. Feel free to prove me wrong, but we all know you aren't going to.



Yeah, it's a great mechanic being the only DPS spec in the game with this issue consistently, while those who only primarily do bursty ST have tools designed specifically to deal with threat. We should definitely just do half DPS so we don't pull threat in timed dungeons. Sounds like a plan.



And then there are rogues, warriors, warlocks, balance druids, and mages who don't have any issues any week. But apparently affixes literally being broken for certain specs is good design.



Stop playing with shitty DPS.

If you are such a good player just cope with it and stop complaining. You sure are irritating

[Tech614]

You've just demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all.

The highest burst AoE in the game period is clearly something you can do every pull without CDs!

Thanks for the meme.

If you think Incarnation burst on a guardian is anything special, especially compared to prot paladin burst aoe, then you just demonstrated you have no idea what you're talking about.

And yes, a brewmaster or VDH will end nearly any big pull with about the same damage done as a druid who pops it without needing to use any CDs. brewmaster especially literally doesn't have offensive CDs and is doing their max AoE potential on EVERY PULL(which is a lot btw).

Want to talk about a meme? How about the fact you're not proving anything and just claiming you're better then every other player people play with? Hate to break it to you, but you're not. Your tank knowledge shows you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to them and should probably start blaming them instead of the game.

If you're having trouble with skittish post nerf to it your tanks are bad. It's now as simple as count to 3 and do your normal dps. Any competent tank should be doing 75% or more of what a dps is doing on an average AoE pull without even thinking about it, let alone if they actually plan and spec/gear around it.

Since you only want to talk about Gaurdians let me guess you're playing with a bunch of FOTM guardian rerollers from last patch who are slacking raid tanks that struggle to maintain 500k dps on a raid boss. Or gasp, maybe your alt or main is actually a FOTM guardian reroll yourself that you don't know how to maximize damage on.