What happened to all the moderates?

[Ghostpanther]

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No. But Religion is not exempt from Criticism. In fact, Religion should be Criticized at every moment it can.

ANY RELIGION.

I agree with this. And any person who is religous should be ready to defend their position when others do. Or as a min, display they are not hypocrites.

[McTroll]

I just don't see a place for moderates in politics right now, at least in the US. Maybe if we had mandatory elections, election day was a federal holiday, and we had a preferential voting system, but that's living in a fantasy world.

As of right now, you have two factions in the US political system: one is actively trying to strip healthcare from 20 million plus people, the other is trying to stop them. One is actively trying to deregulate business as much as possible with no regard for the eventual impact on consumers, the other is trying to stop them. One is supporting education programs where public funds are funneled into making private schools better for the children of the elite, the other is trying to keep the funds where they can benefit the most students. One is trying to cut corporate taxes to encourage "job growth", the other is trying to raise the minimum wage so maybe the working class don't need 3 jobs each to make rent. This is to say nothing of the sheer hate filled rhetoric spewing from one side with regards to LGBT rights, religious freedom for any religion other than christianity, racial inequality, etc.

This is more than a political disagreement. This is an existential crisis for anyone in favor of liberal economic or social policies. In some cases, people literally need to fight for the rights of themselves or friends/family to do things like get married, serve in the military, travel to this country to visit, or hell even use a public restroom.

You can have room to be moderate when I don't have to live in fear that my aunt will have her parental rights taken away if she divorces her wife. Or when I don't have to live in fear that my children will be forced to go to a religious private school I fundamentally disagree with and can scarcely afford because the funding from my local public schools is gone. Or when I don't have to live in fear that my wife will get pregnant again and be dropped from her insurance coverage based on a preexisting condition. Or when I don't have to live in fear that my religious views will result in me being publicly shamed in the streets.

So you're basically flipping the bird at them because "muh issues".

Well then, right back at ya! No reason for me or anyone else to give a fuck about your wall of text if you won't consider people with differing POVs because of "muh issues".

Sit on it and spin.

[Alvito]

Moderates, you mean the "Radical Center" ?

Alt middle

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Fear, anger, greed or apathy have quieted or pushed them one way or another.

[Cooper]

So you're basically flipping the bird at them because "muh issues".

Well then, right back at ya! No reason for me or anyone else to give a fuck about your wall of text if you won't consider people with differing POVs because of "muh issues".

Sit on it and spin.

Should've just reposted that John Cleese video for him.

[Antiganon]

So you're basically flipping the bird at them because "muh issues".

Well then, right back at ya! No reason for me or anyone else to give a fuck about your wall of text if you won't consider people with differing POVs because of "muh issues".

Sit on it and spin.

I will gladly debate with anyone who has a differing POV about any of those issues. If you have a solid argument, you might even convince me.

Thing is, you need to actually have a POV, and not just be a fence sitter who doesn't try to advocate for their beliefs.

Moderate != Centrist

[PassingBy]

Being a moderate means to think for yourself.
Being a moderate means having an honest discussion about important issues.

Doing that leads you to a quite apparent conclusion non of the two parties that you have a choice of represent what you believe in.
The issues that the country and the world are facing are much more complex than what the candidates are trying to feed you.

Since those kind of people will always be a minority, and a minority that is hard to influence through media propaganda they are usually discarded in a political discussion.

Why the fuck would you care about moderates, when you can use your usual propaganda tools such as fear, showmanship, outright lies, shift of focus from really important issues to made up issues, polarization of the society and making people fight against each other and get your votes.
What happenned in Charlotsville is not just the logical outcome of the Dem vs Rep shitshow, it is what the people in both parties need the most. More fear, more anger, more division.

[McTroll]

Thing is, you need to actually have a POV, and not just be a fence sitter who doesn't try to advocate for their beliefs.

Uhh... who made you boss around here? I don't recall hearing about you getting to decide anything for others.

[Antiganon]

Uhh... who made you boss around here? I don't recall hearing about you getting to decide anything for others.

You are missing important context.

I will gladly debate with anyone who has a differing POV about any of those issues. If you have a solid argument, you might even convince me.

Thing is, you need to actually have a POV, and not just be a fence sitter who doesn't try to advocate for their beliefs.

Moderate != Centrist

You can have whatever noncommittal opinion you want, just don't expect me to debate it with you.

[PassingBy]

I just don't see a place for moderates in politics right now, at least in the US. Maybe if we had mandatory elections, election day was a federal holiday, and we had a preferential voting system, but that's living in a fantasy world.

As of right now, you have two factions in the US political system: one is actively trying to strip healthcare from 20 million plus people, the other is trying to stop them. One is actively trying to deregulate business as much as possible with no regard for the eventual impact on consumers, the other is trying to stop them. One is supporting education programs where public funds are funneled into making private schools better for the children of the elite, the other is trying to keep the funds where they can benefit the most students. One is trying to cut corporate taxes to encourage "job growth", the other is trying to raise the minimum wage so maybe the working class don't need 3 jobs each to make rent. This is to say nothing of the sheer hate filled rhetoric spewing from one side with regards to LGBT rights, religious freedom for any religion other than christianity, racial inequality, etc.

And then someone else will say:

As of right now you have the two factions in the US political system: one is actively trying to increase governmental spending and increase the all time high debt, while the other one is fighting for rational spending and decreasing the debt. One is actively trying to interfere in the free market system, that was one of the foundations of the economical growth of this country, while the other is fighting to get government out of the economy. One is actively trying to strip you of your constitutional rights, control your freedom of speech, take away your right to bear arms, while the other one is fighting for the principles, that were stated by the forefathers in the constitution. One is working hard to destroy the american family interfering in the way you should raise your children, promoting abortions as a way of contraception, while the other one fights hard to protect the family values. One is actively pushing the idea that a person must be judged by his race, gender or sexual orientation, while the other one fights hard to protect the notion that a person must be judged only by merit and talent.

You can have room to be moderate when I don't have to live in fear that my son will not get into a good college with higher grades and better talent than another kid just because he is white. I don't have to live in fear that I will not get my dream job because I am not a member of a specific gender, minority or other group. Or when people won't have to fear that their religious beliefs would be trampled by the government in an effort to "protect" the rights of the minorities.

And the list of stupid exxagerations can go on and on.

You are just proving the OPs point.

There is no field for a moderate political discussion anymore. And there is no need for it, since just shouting nonesense and speaking with slogans is enough.
Donald Trump is the perfect incarnation of modern US politics. Everyone was so surprised that he won, but he is what this system was designed for and the only surprise is that it took so long for someone like him to become a president.

[Elegiac]

There is no field for a moderate political discussion anymore. And there is no need for it, since just shouting nonesense and speaking with slogans is enough. Donald Trump is the perfect incarnation of modern US politics. Everyone was so surprised that he won, but he is what this system was designed for and the only surprise is that it took so long for someone like him to become a president.

If you mean he was the thing the system was designed to guard -against-, sure.

[burzian]

And then someone else will say:
You can have room to be moderate when I don't have to live in fear that my son will not get into a good college with higher grades and better talent than another kid just because he is white. I don't have to live in fear that I will not get my dream job because I am not a member of a specific gender, minority or other group. Or when people won't have to fear that their religious beliefs would be trampled by the government in an effort to "protect" the rights of the minorities.

It's hard to tell where your fan fiction example of unreasonable points ends and your actual ideas begin, but let's hope this especially pathetic paragraph is an attempt at the former.

[PassingBy]

If you mean he was the thing the system was designed to guard -against-, sure.

No I mean that with the constant degradation of the discourse, the mass hysteria on both sides of the political spectrum, the showmanship, the demagogy, the polarization Trump is quite a logical result.

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It's hard to tell where your fan fiction example of unreasonable points ends and your actual ideas begin, but let's hope this especially pathetic paragraph is an attempt at the former.

Well since the post that I was answering to was full of reasonable points and truth of life it is quite obvious that mine was also as reasonable and truthful.

[Elegiac]

No I mean that with the constant degradation of the discourse, the mass hysteria on both sides of the political spectrum, the showmanship, the demagogy, the polarization Trump is quite a logical result.

If by "both sides" you mean "the Republican Party", sure.

Trump is the chicken coming home to roost; the Republican Party has been appealing to the lowest common denominator and shitting over established political convention for years now. In fact, I'd be willing to point out the Palin nomination as the watershed moment that made the entry of the crazy populists on the far right into the mainstream political conversation possible.

It's a tale as old as time, ultimately; the Republicans reared up a monster of their own making for political advantage, and have been consumed by it.

[burzian]

No I mean that with the constant degradation of the discourse, the mass hysteria on both sides of the political spectrum, the showmanship, the demagogy, the polarization Trump is quite a logical result.

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Well since the post that I was answering to was full of reasonable points and truth of life it is quite obvious that mine was also as reasonable and truthful.

Well no, because you parodied what he said pretty directly and then went on about your disadvantaged white son and that shit, which seemed like your own actual points. If that was more satire then that's great news!

[Trassk]

I enjoy how every meme on this subject portrays the "far left" as just a typical modern liberal, whilst contrasting them with an extreme "far right" example... Ignoring that there are actual fringe left elements in this country that are legitimately retarded.

Because the far left don't want to be made out as being extremists.

[Antiganon]

And then someone else will say:

As of right now you have the two factions in the US political system: one is actively trying to increase governmental spending and increase the all time high debt, while the other one is fighting for rational spending and decreasing the debt. One is actively trying to interfere in the free market system, that was one of the foundations of the economical growth of this country, while the other is fighting to get government out of the economy. One is actively trying to strip you of your constitutional rights, control your freedom of speech, take away your right to bear arms, while the other one is fighting for the principles, that were stated by the forefathers in the constitution. One is working hard to destroy the american family interfering in the way you should raise your children, promoting abortions as a way of contraception, while the other one fights hard to protect the family values. One is actively pushing the idea that a person must be judged by his race, gender or sexual orientation, while the other one fights hard to protect the notion that a person must be judged only by merit and talent.

You can have room to be moderate when I don't have to live in fear that my son will not get into a good college with higher grades and better talent than another kid just because he is white. I don't have to live in fear that I will not get my dream job because I am not a member of a specific gender, minority or other group. Or when people won't have to fear that their religious beliefs would be trampled by the government in an effort to "protect" the rights of the minorities.

And the list of stupid exxagerations can go on and on.

You are just proving the OPs point.

There is no field for a moderate political discussion anymore. And there is no need for it, since just shouting nonesense and speaking with slogans is enough.
Donald Trump is the perfect incarnation of modern US politics. Everyone was so surprised that he won, but he is what this system was designed for and the only surprise is that it took so long for someone like him to become a president.

But if you say that, you are not a moderate. You are standing for something. I can debate you on the merit of your ideas, and vice versa. We could talk about whether national debt is a concern worth shutting down the government over, or how much social spending is too much, or where the government's involvement in your personal life should end.

Those are policy positions that have an inherent dichotomy, and there is a compromise somewhere to be had in the middle (whether we can find it is another story).

That is the intention of the marketplace of ideas. That your idea and my idea each have flaws, which are made better by finding the common ground.

Not that I can spout an idea, you can spout an idea, and some third guy, with no opinions, gets to yell at both of us and claim some moral high ground because hes a moderate.

[Elegiac]

Because the far left don't want to be made out as being extremists.

Churchill said it so it -must- be true, right?

[Ethris]

If by "both sides" you mean "the Republican Party", sure.

Trump is the chicken coming home to roost; the Republican Party has been appealing to the lowest common denominator and shitting over established political convention for years now. In fact, I'd be willing to point out the Palin nomination as the watershed moment that made the entry of the crazy populists on the far right into the mainstream political conversation possible.

It's a tale as old as time, ultimately; the Republicans reared up a monster of their own making for political advantage, and have been consumed by it.

Are you sure it's not the same cocksure attitude and self-righteous vindication with which you blame literally every other group but yourselves?

[McTroll]

Not that I can spout an idea, you can spout an idea, and some third guy, with no opinions, gets to yell at both of us and claim some moral high ground because hes a moderate.

Okay, so you get to yell at people with different views than you because of your own moral high-ground (ie: claim that you're "standing for something"), but you come back crying when someone else than your "enemy" decides he has enough of your shit? You're just rationalizing the fact that you can't stand being served your own medecine. Hypocrite.

[Elegiac]

Are you sure it's not the same cocksure attitude and self-righteous vindication with which you blame literally every other group but yourselves?

No, fairly sure it's the same sort of co-opting that has happened to countless political factions throughout history.