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  1. #1

    Why Even Nazis Deserve Free Speech

    Why Even Nazis Deserve Free Speech
    The First Amendment is under threat—and you should be worried.


    The events in Charlottesville last weekend have provoked understandable fear and outrage. Potential sites for future “alt-right” rallies are on edge. Texas A&M University, the University of Florida and Michigan State University have all decided to cancel or deny prospective events by white nationalist Richard Spencer. All cited safety concerns. All raise serious First Amendment issues.

    Even though we’ve been called “free speech absolutists”—sometimes, but not always, as a compliment—we will not pretend that Spencer’s speaking cancellations make for a slam-dunk First Amendment lawsuit. Yes, hateful, bigoted and racist speech is fundamentally protected under the First Amendment, as it should be. However, if we’re honest about the law, we have to recognize that Spencer faces tough—though not insurmountable—legal challenges.

    First, he is not a student at any of the aforementioned universities and was not invited to the campuses by students or faculty. He was seeking space on campus that is available to the general public to rent out. In at least some cases, courts have found that public colleges have a somewhat freer hand to regulate the speech of non-students on campus who are not invited by students or faculty.

    Second, although a general, unsubstantiated fear of violence is not enough to justify cancelling an approved speaking event, recent violence in Charlottesville and the fact that one of the organizers of the Texas A&M rally used the promotional tagline “TODAY CHARLOTTESVILLE TOMORROW TEXAS A&M” make security concerns more concrete, at least in the short term. The more concrete the security concerns are, the easier it is to justify the cancellation or denials.

    Third, as David Frum, Dahlia Lithwick and Mark Joseph Stern point out, judges might decide cases differently when protesters are liable to show up brandishing guns, as happened in Charlottesville. Bad facts make bad law, so the saying goes. The general legal standard now is that if a public college opens itself up to outside speakers, it cannot engage in viewpoint discrimination. Most cases of prior restraint censorship will fail in court under this standard. But in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy in Charlottesville, judges may look differently at these facts.

    And that should trouble us: If a court decides in favor of the prior restraints, it could set a precedent that would do considerable harm to the free speech rights of speakers, students and faculty far beyond Spencer.

    But what happens in a court of law is one thing. What happens in the court of public opinion is perhaps more important. As the famous jurist Learned Hand once said, “Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.”

    And, unfortunately, there is evidence that freedom of speech needs a pacemaker.

    If your social media newsfeed doesn’t provide ample anecdotal evidence that free speech is suffering a public relations crisis, look to the polling: A recent Knight Foundation study found that fewer than 50 percent of high school students think that people should be free to say things that are offensive to others.

    The New York Times opinion page, for its part, has run three columns since April questioning the value of free speech for all, the most recent imploring the ACLU to “rethink free speech”—the same ACLU that at the height of Nazism, Communism and Jim Crow in 1940 released a leaflet entitled, “Why we defend civil liberty even for Nazis, Fascists and Communists.” The ACLU of Virginia carried on this honorable tradition of viewpoint-neutral free speech defense in the days before the Charlottesville protests. However, the Wall Street Journal reported this week that the ACLU “will no longer defend hate groups seeking to march with firearms.”

    And how is the birthplace of the 1960s free speech movement faring? In the wake of the riots that shut down alt-right provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos’ speech at the University of California, Berkeley on February 1, multiple students and alumni wrote that the violence and destruction of the Antifa protests were a form of “self-defense” against the “violence” of Yiannopoulos’ speech. Watching videos of the protest, it is fortunate nobody was killed.

    What’s to account for this shift? One of our theories is that this generation of students comprises the children of students who went to college during the first great age of campus speech codes that spanned from the late 1980s through the early 90s. This is when colleges and universities first began writing over-broad and vague policies to regulate allegedly racist and sexist speech. Although that movement failed in the court of law, these codes have stubbornly persisted, and the view that freedom of speech is the last refuge of the “three Bs”—the bully, the bigot and the robber baron—found a home in classrooms.

    When we speak on college campuses, our explanations of the critical role the First Amendment played in ensuring the success of the civil rights movement, the women’s rights movement and the gay rights movement are often met with blank stares. At a speech at Brown University, in fact, a student laughed when Greg pointed out that Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall was a steadfast defender of freedom of speech––as if it were impossible for a black icon of the civil rights movement to be a free-speech champion.

    However, we don’t fault students for holding these opinions. The idea of free speech is an eternally radical and counterintuitive one that requires constant education about its principles. Censorship has been the rule for most of human history. True freedom of speech is a relatively recent phenomenon. It perhaps reached its high point in the United States in the second half of the 20th century.

    Most Americans claim that they venerate free speech in principle. So do most world leaders. Even censorial dictators like Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdogan sometimes feign support for it. Despite this, it’s common for people to have their exceptions in practice: their “I believe in free speech, but …” responses. But even the “free speech, but …” responses seem to be falling out of favor. In the last few years—and especially after Charlottesville—we have observed increasing squeamishness about free speech, and not just in practice; also in principle.

    So how do we respond to the calls for censorship after Charlottesville?

    For most of our careers, the charge “what if the Nazis came to town?” has been posed as a hypothetical retort to free speech defenses. (Godwin’s law extends to free speech debates, too.) But the hypothetical is no longer a hypothetical: In Charlottesville, neo-Nazis carried swastikas through the streets and revived the Hitler salute.

    If you were to listen to scholars like Richard Delgado, the response should be to pass laws, to put people in jail, to do whatever it takes to stop the Nazi contagion from spreading. It’s a popular argument in Europe and in legal scholarship, but not in American courts.

    There are a few problems with this response that free speech advocates have long recognized. For one, it doesn’t necessarily work; since the passage of Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism laws in Europe, rates of anti-Semitism remain higher than in the U.S., where no such laws exist. In fact, the Anti-Defamation League found that rates of anti-Semitism have gone down in America since it first began measuring anti-Semitic attitudes in 1964.

    What’s more, in the 1920s and 30s, Nazis did go to jail for anti-Semitic expression, and when they were released, they were celebrated as martyrs. When Bavarian authorities banned speeches by Hitler in 1925, for example, the Nazis exploited it. As former ACLU Executive Director Aryeh Neier explains in his book Defending My Enemy, the Nazi party protested the ban by distributing a picture of Hitler gagged with the caption, “One alone of 2,000 million people of the world is forbidden to speak in Germany.” The ban backfired and became a publicity coup. It was soon lifted.

    We cannot forget, too, that laws have to be enforced by people. In the 1920s and early 30s, such laws would have placed the power to censor in the hands of a population that voted in large numbers for Nazis. And after 1933, such laws would have placed that power to censor in the hands of Hitler himself. Consider how such power might be used by the politician you most distrust. Consider how it is currently being used by Vladimir Putin in Russia.

    What does history suggest as the best course of action to win the benefits of an open society while stemming the tide of authoritarians of any stripe? It tells us to have a high tolerance for differing opinions, and no tolerance for political violence. What distinguishes liberal societies from illiberal ones is that liberal societies use words, not violence or censorship to settle disputes. As Neier, a Holocaust survivor, concluded in his book, “The lesson of Germany in the 1920s is that a free society cannot be established and maintained if it will not act vigorously and forcefully to punish political violence.”

    But we should not be so myopic about the value of freedom of speech. It is not just a practical, peaceful alternative to violence. It does much more than that: It helps us understand many crucial, mundane and sometimes troubling truths. Simply put, it helps us understand what people actually think—not “even if” it is troubling, but especially when it is troubling.

    As Edward Luce points out in his excellent new short book The Retreat of Western Liberalism, there are real consequences to ignoring or wishing away the views that are held by real people, even if elites believe that those views are nasty or wrongheaded. Gay marriage champion and author Jonathan Rauch reminds us that in the same way that breaking a thermometer doesn’t change the temperature, censoring ideas doesn’t make them go away—it only makes us ignorant of their existence.

    So what do we do about white supremacists? Draw a strong distinction between expression and violence: punish violence, but protect even speakers we find odious. Let them reveal themselves.

    As Harvey Silverglate, a co-founder of our organization, the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, says, it’s important to know who the Nazis are in the room.

    Why?

    Because we need to know not to turn our backs to them.
    Unreason and anti-intellectualism abominate thought. Thinking implies disagreement; and disagreement implies nonconformity; and nonconformity implies heresy; and heresy implies disloyalty — so, obviously, thinking must be stopped. But shouting is not a substitute for thinking and reason is not the subversion but the salvation of freedom. - Adlai Stevenson

  2. #2
    Banned SLSAMG's Avatar
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    Hate speech =/= free speech

    There's a fucking difference.

  3. #3
    I'm explicitly NOT worried about free speech right now. Free speech is EXACTLY what's happening. Nobody is saying the Nazi's should go to jail for what their saying. They're just getting fired from their jobs, kicked out of universities and disowned by their families. Nobody has charged them with a crime for saying their bullshit.

    In other words. Free speech is working perfectly.

  4. #4
    would you be accepting of a paedophile rally?

    using the free speech argument to justify a white supremacists rally, isn't much different from using it to justify a paedophilia rally.

    think about that

    edit: from page 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrages View Post
    You don't have to be OK with what a person says to recognize that you still have to allow them to say it. It's unfortunate that such simple ideas are still too big for some people to grasp.
    i fully understand the concept.

    i'm asking whether you would be accepting of it? would you counter protest? would you endorse violence against them?

    there's already one guy above willing to napalm them - how sincere it is, i dont know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    Yes I would. Because they would all be in one place and make a nice convenient target for an accidental "Woops a daisy, we honestly didn't mean to drop that napalm bomb" incident.
    if you counter protested, would you expect the chants about fiddling your kiddies to not raise tensions? do you think fights would break out?
    what if they started turning up armed, because they expected violent resistance to their ideas? would you turn up armed?

    freedom of speech is an interesting thing.

    at what point does it become hate speech?
    at what point do you cross the line into fighting for what you believe in?

    how do you legislate this?
    Last edited by smokii; 2017-08-19 at 10:08 PM.
    <insert witty signature here>

  5. #5
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Because they don't and whatever misguided suggestion is basically from a fundamentally flawed idea of what a Nazi is. Not that someone can't make an argument a Nazi, would however the two usually are one in the same. No Nazi's shouldn't be given reign to spew hate speech, and encourage others to target and kill people who are jewish, persons of color, gay or anything else.

    I am not of the mind that I need to be reminded that lunatics believe crazy shit to never turn my back on them or even explore and understand why. I know history, both sides of the story, WW1 and WW2, Nazi are bad fucking people when they aren't targeting others they are getting those they claim are their own who get caught up and fucked up in the head meaning other white people.

    They don't give a shit about anybody, their warped senses and beliefs have been rejected and fought for a reason. So you either have two options one you defend Nazi's and thus make yourself one, or you reject them their tactics or anything to do with Nazi's and their ideology no matter how much of their old dog shit ideas they spray paint gold.

    I reject Nazi's they should be exposed,and they should be condemned.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  6. #6
    Free speech does not mean that anyone has to give you a platform or listen to your shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    There are no 2 species that are 100% identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redditor
    can you leftist twits just fucking admit that quantum mechanics has fuck all to do with thermodynamics, that shit is just a pose?

  7. #7
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    I get their point - that we need to allow these people to express themselves in order to show themselves. There is truth to that. Trump and his campaign to the POTUS created an atmosphere that lets people like this thrive easier than before, and finally we're seeing just how deep racism and hate still dwell in America.

  8. #8
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    You don't deserve the right to incite genocide.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokii View Post
    would you be accepting of a paedophile rally?
    Yes I would. Because they would all be in one place and make a nice convenient target for an accidental "Woops a daisy, we honestly didn't mean to drop that napalm bomb" incident.

  10. #10
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    I don't even think this is worth discussing anymore. People are clearly done talking about this.

    The only thing left is action and/or commentary on events related to the war on free speech.

  11. #11
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Hate speech is not covered by your precious amendment, Hate speech even has a category in your legal code.

    Saying people can't rally under a banner that promotes mass murder among other things is the same as the censorship Putin uses is a very narrow minded argument better yet it is attempting to use fear to justify hate speech, while said hate speech and believes are actually what these types promotes, an authoritarian rule where nobody is free.

    Rather ironic.

  12. #12
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Allowing Nazis a foothold to spread their ideology via "free speech" is like allowing companies to sell AIDS. People are stupid enough to buy it and stupid enough to spread it.

    There is no room in America for Nazis.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Vizardlorde's Avatar
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    I thought free speech meant that you wouldn't be penalized by the government for saying crap. I think what they want is protected speech that is government penalizing other people for reacting to the crap they( extremists) spew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    MMO-C, where a shill for Putin cares about democracy in the US.

  14. #14
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE Bigzoman View Post
    I don't even think this is worth discussing anymore. People are clearly done talking about this.

    The only thing left is action and/or commentary on events related to the war on free speech.
    Well that's a slippery slope
    #boycottchina

  15. #15
    You guys know Nazi's already have free speech right?

    No one went around the protests and arrested people simply because they were Nazis. They can say whatever they want.

  16. #16
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrages View Post
    Nobody is inciting genocide. Stop being an infant.
    Haha, what? Nazis? not inciting genocide? Do you even know what nazis are?

  17. #17
    I'm pretty sure inciting violence dpes not fall under free speech.

  18. #18
    Let's give ISIS a platform to speak from as well.

  19. #19
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    I'm pretty sure inciting violence dpes not fall under free speech.
    Neo-nazis want it too though, as long as its them doing it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrages View Post
    Nobody is inciting genocide. Stop being an infant.
    Except Neo-Nazi's. But that's inconvinient right?

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