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  1. #21
    Brewmaster CostinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Trump threatened military intervention in Venezuela. What the fuck do you think that would involve if not regime change?
    He was asked about options on Venezuela, he said he had many options including the military option.

    Turning that into talk of regime change is bloody ridiculous.

    Sorry, are you talking about this cited 538 article which completely counters your argument with evidence?
    Oh yeah let's talk about that article:

    “One day we’re bombing Libya and getting rid of a dictator to foster democracy for civilians, the next day we are watching the same civilians suffer while that country falls apart,” Trump said in a speech laying out his approach to foreign policy in April 2016. “We’re a humanitarian nation. But the legacy of the [former President Barack] Obama [and former Secretary of State Hillary] Clinton interventions will be weakness, confusion and disarray.”
    and

    After Mike Pence suggested in the vice presidential debate last fall that the U.S. should take a stronger stance against the Assad regime, Trump publicly dismissed this view, saying “Syria is fighting ISIS.” In an interview with the Guardian during the campaign, Trump said, “What we should do is focus on ISIS. We should not be focusing on Syria.
    Trump is focusing on ISIS and he isn't interested in getting rid of any dictator. Doing a single strike against Assad so he doesn't use chemical weapons again is still perfectly fine....well that and not allowing Assad to humiliate the United States like he did.

    A few days before the chemical weapons strike Haley and Tillerson had come out publicly saying they'd abandon the policy of regime change in Syria while the Trump admin was moving to cut their support of rebels fighting him, which they did by the way. They got plenty of condemnation from the hawks in Congress for this.

    They got rewarded by Assad doing a chemical weapons strike, so in order to cover their backs they struck Assad, made it clear it would be tolerated again and then moved back to what they were doing before, including ending the CIA program.
    "No president could weather losing an FBI director" - James Comey, former FBI director.

    Donald Trump's Political Revolution

  2. #22
    Moderator xChurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    He was asked about options on Venezuela, he said he had many options including the military option.

    Turning that into talk of regime change is bloody ridiculous.
    What would be the military option if not regime change? Just blowing up bases or some such would just harden Maduro's resolve and make America once again a pariah in South America.
    Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - Carl Sagan

    False facts are highly injurious to the progress of science, for they often endure long; but false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for every one takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness. - Charles Darwin

  3. #23
    The source for this is not reliable.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Trump is focusing on ISIS and he isn't interested in getting rid of any dictator. Doing a single strike against Assad so he doesn't use chemical weapons again is still perfectly fine
    Remember, kids, if you're going to either move the goalposts, handwave, or cherry pick -- or all three in one post -- remember to either looses up your muscles or flex those joints. Because either way...

    (sunglasses)

    ...you're stretching.

    Wanting to fight ISIS is commendable, in the same way it's commendable that literally every other politician was doing that. It's almost like being against American Nazis and the KKK. However, Trump was quite clear that Clinton was going to start WW3 with no-fly zones to try to keep Assad from killing his people quite so quickly. Them, someone in the White House showed Trump a picture of hurt or killed children and suddenly retaliating was all about national security. That's by Trump and White House statements, by the way, not fake news or hyperbole.

    And it's even more ironic that the only raid he'd personally authorized before killed a little girl.

    It is not possible to defend Trump's campaign speeches as only, or even mostly, against regime change. He attacked Clinton as a war hawk every chance he got with Syria as a specific focus of that. For example, from September of 2015:

    "AGAIN, TO OUR VERY FOOLISH LEADER, DO NOT ATTACK SYRIA - IF YOU DO MANY VERY BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN & FROM THAT FIGHT THE U.S. GETS NOTHING!"

    Wow, look at those all caps. I don't see ASSAD in there. I don't see REGIME in there. Fight all you want against one of the dozen articles I linked, you will never be able to refute them all, nor will you be able to refute the direct words of Trump himself.

    Oh, and for added fun, this is what he said to Pence for doing what Trump himself later did:

    MARTHA RADDATZ
    Mr.Trump, let me repeat the question. If you were president, what would you do about Syria and the humanitarian crisis in Aleppo? And I want to remind you what your running mate said. He said provocations by Russian need to be met with American strength and that if Russia continues to be involved with airstrikes along with the Syrian government forces of Assad, the United States of America should be prepared to use military force to strike the military targets, of the Assad regime.

    DONALD TRUMP
    Okay. He and I haven’t spoken and I disagree.

    Then, Trump does it anyhow. Yes, he also stops funding the anti-Assad rebels, after emerging from a closed-door meeting wiping Putin's semen off his lips, by agreeing to a cease-fire in which the US ceded basically everything, confusing our military on what they're supposed to do and how (turns out the answer is "nothing") in the region and gets nothing in return, or to rephrase, THE U.S. GETS NOTHING.

    But all of this is a side dish to the main course: you can frantically search through Trump's speeches, hoping desperately to find more times he talked about regime change than about intervening, attacking, or other military action. I don't think you will, but I won't stop you, because even if you did, it wouldn't matter. Trump ran on the MAGA platform, saying "America first and only America first" to thundering applause. Killing trade deals is part of it. Bringing jobs and money from overseas was part of it. Building the Wall was part of it. Threatening to leave NATO and/or the UN was part of it, and a particularly relevant one. Cutting foreign aid was part of it. Yes, not toppling regimes was part of it, but unlike what you said, it wasn't the end of it.

    "We don't want to have a depleted military because we’re all over the place fighting in areas that we shouldn't be fighting in. It's not going to be depleted any longer."

    It is not possible for a reasonable person to defend Trump as only being against regime change, when his proven words and statements say otherwise. It is also not possible to paint him as anything other than a hypocrite on the subject three months into his term, but I will admit, when he was campaigning, he hadn't bombed Syria yet, so his rabid fanbase just had to judge him from his previous words and actions, and hope he wasn't lying as much about that topic as he was about basically everything else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Breitbart continues to attack McMaster, accusing him of failing to brief Trump on the loss of lives of servicemen in the USS McCain accident, therefore forcing Trump to respond with "that's too bad" (see thread on subject) when asked about it.

    Wow. That's a real stretch, right there.

  5. #25
    Brewmaster CostinR's Avatar
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    It is not possible for a reasonable person to defend Trump as only being against regime change, when his proven words and statements say otherwise. It is also not possible to paint him as anything other than a hypocrite on the subject three months into his term, but I will admit, when he was campaigning, he hadn't bombed Syria yet, so his rabid fanbase just had to judge him from his previous words and actions, and hope he wasn't lying as much about that topic as he was about basically everything else.
    I never argued he was only against regime change. My exact words have been a less interventionist foreign policy. While you argued he's done essentially the same things Hillary would have, that he isn't any better: That's a load of horseshit.

    A focus on ISIS doesn't mean ignoring Assad, it never meant ignoring Assad. Maybe fools thought that Trump and Assad could just move on from all these years and the US would just allow him to have everything he wanted.

    That was never going to happen. If only because Assad wants the kurds out of the question, same Kurds fighting ISIS in Raqqa

    Breitbart continues to attack McMaster, accusing him of failing to brief Trump on the loss of lives of servicemen in the USS McCain accident, therefore forcing Trump to respond with "that's too bad" (see thread on subject) when asked about it.

    Wow. That's a real stretch, right there.
    Bannon was forced out over his spate with McMaster, so obviously he's going to go on a crusade against him.

    It's hilarious though because it was McMaster who along with Pompeo ended the CIA rebel arming program in Syria, yet the 4chan Breitbart fanclub have their heads so stuck up their asses they don't even know.
    "No president could weather losing an FBI director" - James Comey, former FBI director.

    Donald Trump's Political Revolution

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    I never argued he was only against regime change. My exact words have been a less interventionist foreign policy.
    Well that's a big step down from

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They liked him because he wouldn't do a military intervention for regime change. Even now after all that's happened even on North Korea the Trump admin makes it clear: It doesn't want regime change.
    Now, you can either backtrack and say "he was against other thins too" making your bit about regime change pointless, or, you can backtrack and say "he was mostly against regime change" which, I believe the quote was, had a "savage" rebuttal for which you nitpicked one line from one article. Either way, I'm pretty sure Trump's proven words and actions have got you in a bit of a box, there. It's gotta be difficult defending someone who has no consistent agenda and still breaks his promises.

    Lift those goalposts with your legs, not your back. Don't hurt yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    While you argued he's done essentially the same things Hillary would have, that he isn't any better: That's a load of horseshit.
    Funny you should use the term "horseshit".

    I never once argued that Hillary would have done the same things. Trump did. He campaigned on it, ran on it, he was saying Clinton would kill us all the days before the election. All I did was cite and quote him.

    So when you say "load of horseshit" I think you've made my point for me. So...thanks?

    And also obligatory "Clinton lost, get over it". Maybe Clinton would have done something, maybe not, irrelevant hypothetical. Trump proved himself to be a hypocrite, because he did attack Syria. So why aren't you upset? Trump's the one who lied, all I did was rub your face in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    A focus on ISIS doesn't mean ignoring Assad, it never meant ignoring Assad.
    It does now, Trump agreed to Putin's terms and we've ceded the country in a cease-fire that leaves the US toothless.

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Bannon was forced out over his spate with McMaster, so obviously he's going to go on a crusade against him.
    Yep. No argument here. Makes the administration look horrible. Man, that fine-tuned machine is running great, huh? Watching the people Trump hand-picked to run his administration at each others' throats must be exactly what Twitler's rabid fanbase voted for. They must be thrilled.

  7. #27
    A military genius? What a joke. If he was a military genius he'd be pushing for an end to the war in Afghanistan one way or the other. Instead he pushes half measures, and policy that has and now will continue to prolong our war there.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    A military genius? What a joke. If he was a military genius he'd be pushing for an end to the war in Afghanistan one way or the other. Instead he pushes half measures, and policy that has and now will continue to prolong our war there.
    Trump chose to run while we were stuck in that quagmire, then found there were no easy answers, no matter how many more generals he knew more than.

    I'll give him some credit: the reality must have hit him in the face, and he listened to his advisors, who apparently told him "stay the FUCK out of it and let us handle it".

  9. #29
    How many times did Trump tweet about Afghanistan? Claiming we had to leave and that Obama was an idiot for staying.

  10. #30
    We pushing for India now boyz!!

    Friendship ended with pakistan. Now India is best friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Actual Mod
    Already being covered in man baby thread
    “The problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented."

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    How many times did Trump tweet about Afghanistan? Claiming we had to leave and that Obama was an idiot for staying.
    At least these six. Here's my favorite:

    Let’s get out of Afghanistan. Our troops are being killed by the Afghanis we train and we waste billions there. Nonsense! Rebuild the USA.

  12. #32
    LOL. I can't imagine the responses in T_D after Trump's speech.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Actual Mod
    Already being covered in man baby thread
    “The problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented."

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    How many times did Trump tweet about Afghanistan? Claiming we had to leave and that Obama was an idiot for staying.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpCriticizesTrump/

    They've got you covered.

  14. #34
    Thank god that war monger Hilary is not in office!
    "I don't want someone who has the knowledge, skill, or even personality necessary to be president. I want someone who can speak his bigoted mind without worrying about offending people!"- The batman

    Common courtesy is like common sense these days, neither of them are too common anymore.

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