1. #1

    7.3 Execute & Juggernaut change



    This change is a buff for single target encounters <5m long (1m Execute time), and a nerf for encounters longer than 5m. Here are my average kill times for reference:



    Some quick spreadsheet analysis below; the first shows Execute damage per stack of Juggernaut before and after the change, which converge at 15 stacks. The second shows total damage done with every combined cast of Execute per stack of Juggernaut, which converge at 29 stacks. On average, it takes about 1m of Execute time to reach 27-29 stacks, which is where we get 5m encounter length.



    TLDR: It's both a buff and a nerf in raids, and a fairly large buff for dungeons/open world content, etc. Keep in mind this is coming ahead of Tier 21, which greatly increases the power of Fury's overall Execute phase overall, and likely the prime reason for limiting Juggernaut's potential in the first place.

  2. #2
    Nice post Arch. Interesting information.

  3. #3
    Enlighten me on "Ahead of Tier 21, which greatly increases the power of Fury's Overall Execute phase". I'll admit I have payed less attention to 7.3.5 raid notes than I should have, but the t21 bonuses are still centered around Rampage buffs and some dot it applies correct?

    Just curious what's going on in t21 execute phase. I know a blue mentioned changing Mass before...or is this in relation to the t21 bonuses and the battlelord ring? I forget the current exact design of the t21 bonuses, but is there a damage buff after Rampage? Thus amped executes with Battlelord?

  4. #4
    Doing the Lord's work, Arch, as usual.

    I'm fine with these numbers, since we needed a buff in shorter encounters. Snowballing on progression or during a messy reclear is neat (I got a great Sisters Mythic parse that way) but too unreliable for me to want to hold on to it. And as you said, more execute damage in dungeons is nice.

  5. #5
    Isn't a major part of the change the fact that losing stacks (to deal with mechanics or player error) is now far less punishing than before? In that vein, I have to think that the change is an overall buff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Doing the Lord's work, Arch, as usual.

    I'm fine with these numbers, since we needed a buff in shorter encounters. Snowballing on progression or during a messy reclear is neat (I got a great Sisters Mythic parse that way) but too unreliable for me to want to hold on to it. And as you said, more execute damage in dungeons is nice.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Vycaus View Post
    Enlighten me on "Ahead of Tier 21, which greatly increases the power of Fury's Overall Execute phase". I'll admit I have payed less attention to 7.3.5 raid notes than I should have, but the t21 bonuses are still centered around Rampage buffs and some dot it applies correct?

    Just curious what's going on in t21 execute phase. I know a blue mentioned changing Mass before...or is this in relation to the t21 bonuses and the battlelord ring? I forget the current exact design of the t21 bonuses, but is there a damage buff after Rampage? Thus amped executes with Battlelord?
    The Tier 21 set bonuses both work off of Rampage, and Massacre (talent or Ring), allows Rampage to be used sub-20%, which increases damage done during the Execute phase. The point is that they could have simply buffed Execute damage without reducing Juggernaut, which would still have had the same desired effect - Execute would be better at low stacks than it is now, and Fury Execute isn't overpowered at anything near 30 stacks (maybe 60+); when combined Fury's Execute with T21 fueled Rampage's via Massacre, however, the amount of damage being done during that phase increases dramatically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by warbean View Post
    Isn't a major part of the change the fact that losing stacks (to deal with mechanics or player error) is now far less punishing than before? In that vein, I have to think that the change is an overall buff.
    Certainly, though they're still performing worse than they would if they maintained stacks, so to call it an outright buff would be kind of misleading, since they (presumably) aren't purposefully trying to let them fall. At any rate, the main reason for using the time-component is to point out that there are still quite a number of fights which regularly exceed 29 stacks of Juggernaut, even on farm.

    Tangentially, this leads into a broader conversation about why we use "perfect play" (simulations) to dictate rotations, talents, and stat priorities; which I couldn't do justice in a few short sentences, but the TLDR is that it's about consistency. There are a lot of different ways to make mistakes, and each one could influence those things (eg: IR wouldn't be a very good talent if you continually forget to use RB, but it would be a much better talent if you were forgetting to use FS, relatively speaking) in different ways. Using the top end as a basis eliminates variables, much in the same way that using Single Target as a baseline - given that every boss has a single target component, but not all have a multi-target one.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    how does tier 21 buff execute faze? i just don t get it! for me this is clearly a nerf as the only kills that matter are longer and in progression

  8. #8
    It's a huge nerf for my poor raid as I'm the only one left alive on some kills

    Oh well.

  9. #9
    Now if only they will do something about the silly 99 max stacks. No one will ever get that high in stacks so its silly to still have that high max stacks.
    HolgerDK Stærkodder Shocknorrís
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The Tier 21 set bonuses both work off of Rampage, and Massacre (talent or Ring), allows Rampage to be used sub-20%, which increases damage done during the Execute phase. The point is that they could have simply buffed Execute damage without reducing Juggernaut, which would still have had the same desired effect - Execute would be better at low stacks than it is now, and Fury Execute isn't overpowered at anything near 30 stacks (maybe 60+); when combined Fury's Execute with T21 fueled Rampage's via Massacre, however, the amount of damage being done during that phase increases dramatically.
    This only means, that the drastic damage increase in execute phase you are mentioning is dependent on either having/using the leg ring or talenting onto Massacre instead of Frothing Berserker. Is dropping Frothing for Massacre worth it? Will it be the go to talent choice in 7.3.5 given the T21 4pc bonus? Otherwise i fail to see how this is going to be a universal damage up across all builds of the spec. Is blizzard balancing the execute phase for fury around a single legendary?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Gylgamess View Post
    This only means, that the drastic damage increase in execute phase you are mentioning is dependent on either having/using the leg ring or talenting onto Massacre instead of Frothing Berserker. Is dropping Frothing for Massacre worth it? Will it be the go to talent choice in 7.3.5 given the T21 4pc bonus? Otherwise i fail to see how this is going to be a universal damage up across all builds of the spec. Is blizzard balancing the execute phase for fury around a single legendary?
    I'll answer your question with my own - do you really think Blizzard doesn't balance around legendaries?

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I'll answer your question with my own - do you really think Blizzard doesn't balance around legendaries?
    They certainly do. However, instead of adressing the legendary itself they nerf the talents/abilities/traits in this case, which makes it a penalty to everyone regardless of legendaries or talents used. Would having Massacre without the legendary ring - and thus trading it off for Frothing buff - generate the same potential damage issue?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I'll answer your question with my own - do you really think Blizzard doesn't balance around legendaries?
    Another reason why the system is shit because some of us have not yet felt RNGsus's blessed touch and gotten all of them.

    Still, I won't look a gift buff in the mouth, even if it nerfs us in some of the more unlikely scenarios of 50+ stacks.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Another reason why the system is shit because some of us have not yet felt RNGsus's blessed touch and gotten all of them.

    Still, I won't look a gift buff in the mouth, even if it nerfs us in some of the more unlikely scenarios of 50+ stacks.
    If they didn't, someone would use the same complaint - the system is shit because it isn't balanced around X legendary (see: beginning of expansion). It's a byproduct of having throughput legendaries period, and there really isn't a middle ground. Anyone who's played Legion for any length of time should understand by now that the name of the game is time investment, whether it's legendaries, AP, or 400+ pull raid bosses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gylgamess View Post
    They certainly do. However, instead of adressing the legendary itself they nerf the talents/abilities/traits in this case, which makes it a penalty to everyone regardless of legendaries or talents used. Would having Massacre without the legendary ring - and thus trading it off for Frothing buff - generate the same potential damage issue?
    The fact that Massacre is a talent which can be freely taken negates your point in the first place. Also, nothing was flat out nerfed; the change in question is just that - a change, being both a buff and a nerf in different situations. The net result of this entire situation is to the players benefit.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The fact that Massacre is a talent which can be freely taken negates your point in the first place. Also, nothing was flat out nerfed; the change in question is just that - a change, being both a buff and a nerf in different situations. The net result of this entire situation is to the players benefit.
    Will this change, along with the focus of T21 set bonuses on Rampage, put the legendary ring (granting the Massacre talent) ahead of either the helm or the pants? Or will we want to keep the helm/legs and swap from FB to Carnage for more frequent Rampages for the first 80% of the fight?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzel View Post
    Will this change, along with the focus of T21 set bonuses on Rampage, put the legendary ring (granting the Massacre talent) ahead of either the helm or the pants? Or will we want to keep the helm/legs and swap from FB to Carnage for more frequent Rampages for the first 80% of the fight?
    Yes, Ring+Pants will be BiS with T21, followed closely by Ring+Helm; however this thread isn't focused on Tier 21, as that will not be released for another couple of months, and there could be any number of balancing changes before that time.

  17. #17
    While this change may be better than continuing to ignore fury/juggernaut for the rest of the expansion -- as it seemed was going to happen -- this is still the typical half-assed blizzard balancing that was clearly not influenced by anyone actually playing a fury warrior. Why on earth they don't just, at minimum, cap Juggernaut at 50 stacks so that it cannot be "broken", and either increase execute's base dmg (which they did) or increase juggernaut dmg from 5 percent to 10 percent per stack, is beyond me. Both of those are better than what we got. Clumsy bullshit, honestly.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Yes, Ring+Pants will be BiS with T21, followed closely by Ring+Helm; however this thread isn't focused on Tier 21, as that will not be released for another couple of months, and there could be any number of balancing changes before that time.
    Thanks for the preliminary info!

  19. #19
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    Hello,
    nice. thx for this information Archi. wp

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Yes, Ring+Pants will be BiS with T21, followed closely by Ring+Helm; however this thread isn't focused on Tier 21, as that will not be released for another couple of months, and there could be any number of balancing changes before that time.
    Do you think that fury will outperform arms in 7.3?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    Anyway stop being such an ass fucktard.
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivium666 View Post
    Would you kindly go fuck yourself?

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