Blue responded about BM

[NoShelter]

Lore said this:

"There are a few specializations (including Beast Mastery) that had some buffs removed or reduced in the latest 7.3 release candidate. Those buffs were added to the PTR to help adjust for the additional 15 item levels your Artifact Weapon will gain from the Netherlight Crucible, as some specs currently get more of an overall effectiveness increase from item level than others.

Since the Netherlight Crucible won't be available immediately when 7.3 launches, these buffs have been removed temporarily from the latest release candidate build. They will be re-added via hotfix a couple weeks after release, once the Crucible can be unlocked.

In the future, we hope to find a better solution for the disparity in effectiveness that weapon ilevel has between specs, but that won't be in 7.3."

source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...m-damage-buff/
__________________________________________________________________

Now, let me break this down. What lore ACTUALLY said was this:

BM is currently at the bottom. When the crucible unlocks, BM will be EVEN FURTHER behind other classes because our dps doesn't benefit well from weapon ilvl. The 4% buff is going to be hotfixed in later in order to keep BM exactly where it is now: still at the bottom.

Not acceptable.

[Biomega]

It really feels to me like their stance is "BM is at the bottom, but people still play it because they like it. If we buff it, people who like it will still play it, but people who DON'T like it will feel forced to play it". The same goes for some of the other classes as well, I think.

[Dracodraco]

So... Go MM? It'll benefit heavily from weapon levels.
Seriously, the constant whine about BM "being bottom" is getting a bit silly; MM was the strongest initially, and they promised that spec balance would remain roughly the same. You go BM for the ability to perform on the move, handle raid mechanics etc without sacrificing output, or consistency. It's that simple. There's no reason for BM to be buffed to a "top" spot, as long as they're still perfectly viable in high end progress (which, surprise surprise, it is).

[Divinexve]

Well I mean you cant really make a spec like BM 'OP' in dps, its literally the best mobility spec in the game, thats your trade off

[Sim]

Well I mean you cant really make a spec like BM 'OP' in dps, its literally the best mobility spec in the game, thats your trade off

Boomkins have equal mobility to BM Hunters and are top damage in MT fights and good ST.

Why it is okay to say BM Hunters should be bottom DPS because they have great mobility and should trade off Damage? Then have another spec (Boomkin) which can also has great mobility (can cast while moving) being top damage with no trade off.

So explain that one.

---

Which makes zero sense considering how little our Weapon ilvl factors into our damage at all.

No seriously.

So they know we needed a buff. But wanted to hold off until the Crucible is out which means BM Hunters will be even further behind because in their own words the buff is meant to compensate for the increase from the Crucible.

But that doesn't even fix the problem in the first place. Knowing that we're under the other specs and are in need of help. So they give us this 4% buff. Okay. Yet we're going to need another one in x.x.5 because Blizzard is just mitigating the Crucible increase and not addressing the current power ranks.

[Skoll Shorties]

I will always play BM. No matter what. Been BM since 2008 and that isn't changing.

[Biomega]

Well I mean you cant really make a spec like BM 'OP' in dps, its literally the best mobility spec in the game, thats your trade off

It's always a matter of degrees. Nobody is saying BM needs to be the king of all damage meters. And single-digit percent buffs are not going to make that happen. But there's a problem when MM comes out on top EVEN on movement-heavy fights.

That's a general rule. Trade-offs are fine, but you have to actually GET something for it to be a trade-off. Otherwise you're just doing the same, but worse.

[andreasels]

While we benefit less from weapon ilvl, we benefit more from higher traits than many other specs afaik (which the crucible will grant later). Maybe it's not as bad as it seems, once the crucible is unlocked completely.

@Sim: Boomkins mobility is really conditional (only if talent taken, which you only take on AoE fights and only during starfall) while we can move freely whenever, whereever.

Still, I don't think we should be worse than other specs in logs, but moreso in sims (patchwerk fight). There need to be a tradeoff for mobility in a pure patchwerk fight or else it would be completely op, but once you compare real fights (which logs do) it should even out.

[Biomega]

Here's a little secret: mobility damage doesn't mean being able to move ALL the time. It means being able to move at the RIGHT time.

It's totally true that BM can just go on autorun and do the same thing it would standing still. That's really powerful. HOWEVER no fight in the history of the game actually REQUIRES YOU TO DO THAT. It's an empty advantage, or at least far less of an advantage than people like to think.

People are very good at figuring out how to play around mechanics on classes that can't just ignore them. That's why we're seeing people go MM even on movement fights, because it's all about WHEN you need to move and HOW, and people find ways to do that and still reap the benefits of higher damage output.

[Moshots]

Lore said this:

"There are a few specializations (including Beast Mastery) that had some buffs removed or reduced in the latest 7.3 release candidate. Those buffs were added to the PTR to help adjust for the additional 15 item levels your Artifact Weapon will gain from the Netherlight Crucible, as some specs currently get more of an overall effectiveness increase from item level than others.

Since the Netherlight Crucible won't be available immediately when 7.3 launches, these buffs have been removed temporarily from the latest release candidate build. They will be re-added via hotfix a couple weeks after release, once the Crucible can be unlocked.

In the future, we hope to find a better solution for the disparity in effectiveness that weapon ilevel has between specs, but that won't be in 7.3."

source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...m-damage-buff/
__________________________________________________________________

Now, let me break this down. What lore ACTUALLY said was this:

BM is currently at the bottom. When the crucible unlocks, BM will be EVEN FURTHER behind other classes because our dps doesn't benefit well from weapon ilvl. The 4% buff is going to be hotfixed in later in order to keep BM exactly where it is now: still at the bottom.

Not acceptable.

Ironically the 15 ilvl's don't help BM much...

but the 3rd part of the crucible The ability to get 7/7 Jaws+7/7 Kill command relics is actually very strong compared to other classes that don't get alot... I think in the end BM will be higher with the 4% buff that it is currently. and No offence but almost every top guild is running Multiple hunters now... BM hunters are seeing KJ in multiples.... MM might be slightly better but there are more BM kills on KJ than MM right now... BM is by no means in a bad place its just not the greatest DPS atm.

But as I said I do feel once the 4% buff is in we will be Higher than we are currently.

[Lochton]

It really feels to me like their stance is "BM is at the bottom, but people still play it because they like it. If we buff it, people who like it will still play it, but people who DON'T like it will feel forced to play it". The same goes for some of the other classes as well, I think.

But, isn't that how it is? That is how at least I feel when people talk about it in raiding.

[Deleted]

The problem is that their argument makes no sense. Even pre-NC weapon ilvl hike, BM would only be at the bottom end of the middle of the pack with the initial aura changes.
Add in an extra 15 weapon levels on top of the current disparity and the issue just amplifies even more. The aura change will, at best, maintain the status quo, which is not good enough.

I'll eagerly await T21 sims, but I doubt ours is that much more of an improvement than the majority of other DPS specs.

I'm glad I took the time to invest in my MM weapon and gear that one up. I'm still missing CoF, 910+ T19 pieces, CoS/Arcway set and the legendary Belt + Gloves, but they'll come eventually.

[Biomega]

But, isn't that how it is? That is how at least I feel when people talk about it in raiding.

BM is a bit special I feel because among the lower performing specs right now it is by far the most popular. Nobody likes SV hunters, even Outlaw rogues have quite low numbers. But BM has a lot of people playing it despite the low damage. That's a double-edged sword because it makes them more reluctant to buff it.

[Lochton]

BM is a bit special I feel because among the lower performing specs right now it is by far the most popular. Nobody likes SV hunters, even Outlaw rogues have quite low numbers. But BM has a lot of people playing it despite the low damage. That's a double-edged sword because it makes them more reluctant to buff it.

*blush*

I.. I like Survival Hunter, and Outlaw Rogue...

Then again, I play those two just because I find them fun, they don't go in to the raiding picture - got a paladin and a warrior for that.

And yeah, the amount of people playing BM can be a confusing output, as it puts you on the button, "Is there then a problem, or not?!"

[Biomega]

Well, there's two ways of looking at it.

"Lots of people are playing it despite the low damage - we don't need to buff it."

vs.

"Lots of people like this spec so maybe we should recognize those people and buff the spec they like so much."

[Mavick]

So... Go MM? It'll benefit heavily from weapon levels.
Seriously, the constant whine about BM "being bottom" is getting a bit silly; MM was the strongest initially, and they promised that spec balance would remain roughly the same. You go BM for the ability to perform on the move, handle raid mechanics etc without sacrificing output, or consistency. It's that simple. There's no reason for BM to be buffed to a "top" spot, as long as they're still perfectly viable in high end progress (which, surprise surprise, it is).

You could buff BM by the 4% that they added, removed, then are apparently adding in a few weeks again, and MM would still be ahead of BM on single target. I don't think anyone, at least anyone being reasonable, is asking for us to be buffed up to some "top spot", just, not being that far behind....

[Biomega]

BM has a bit of a weird position because it's apparent niche (movement) is so rarely used. Fights with the amount of movement required to make BM truly the top dog would obliterate the majority of other ranged classes, which means it's just not going to ever happen. But if the movement is just average, smart players of more turret-style classes will find ways to play the mechanics, essentially negating the BM advantage entirely.

The best solution would simply be to make BM's niche something else, but at this stage of the expansion that is just not going to happen.

[Aesde]

Here's a little secret: mobility damage doesn't mean being able to move ALL the time. It means being able to move at the RIGHT time.

It's totally true that BM can just go on autorun and do the same thing it would standing still. That's really powerful. HOWEVER no fight in the history of the game actually REQUIRES YOU TO DO THAT. It's an empty advantage, or at least far less of an advantage than people like to think.

People are very good at figuring out how to play around mechanics on classes that can't just ignore them. That's why we're seeing people go MM even on movement fights, because it's all about WHEN you need to move and HOW, and people find ways to do that and still reap the benefits of higher damage output.

Then Blizz should make cobra-shot and kill command 2 sec. hardcast, because bm mobility means nothing, right?

[Sim]

While we benefit less from weapon ilvl, we benefit more from higher traits than many other specs afaik (which the crucible will grant later). Maybe it's not as bad as it seems, once the crucible is unlocked completely.

@Sim: Boomkins mobility is really conditional (only if talent taken, which you only take on AoE fights and only during starfall) while we can move freely whenever, whereever.

Still, I don't think we should be worse than other specs in logs, but moreso in sims (patchwerk fight). There need to be a tradeoff for mobility in a pure patchwerk fight or else it would be completely op, but once you compare real fights (which logs do) it should even out.

If you look up Balance Druids on Warcraftlogs every fight. From Goroth to KJ the top 100 logs 98% used Stellar Drift (some Nature's Balance). So it isn't only taken on AOE fights and it is used specifically to give a Boomkin extreme freedom of movement. They did also use starfall in the fight multiple times so it isn't as if they only used it for extreme measures..

(Sauce: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2052
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2032)
etc

[andreasels]

If you look up Balance Druids on Warcraftlogs every fight. From Goroth to KJ the top 100 logs 98% used Stellar Drift (some Nature's Balance). So it isn't only taken on AOE fights and it is used specifically to give a Boomkin extreme freedom of movement. They did also use starfall in the fight multiple times so it isn't as if they only used it for extreme measures..

(Sauce: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2052
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ance&boss=2032)
etc

Oh, I stand corrected then. Only played Boomkin a bit as offspec of my Resto alt and read the Icy Veins Guide. Seems the guide needs an overhaul then.