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  1. #41
    Guilds disband in all tiers, sure, but I got a feeling that in ToS numbers of guild who disband is already really high, and its only been ~2 months since release. I don't have any exact statistics, just my feeling. Also as a GM it was never harder to recruit people than now, is it because my realm is dead pve-wise(sylvanas) or people just cant be bothered raiding i dunno, but my guild is on the verge of disbanding too due to people quitting mythic raiding and going casual.
    Last edited by GoForIt1; 2017-08-27 at 07:33 PM.

  2. #42
    I'm repeatedly told that content seemingly beyond a player's skill cap inspires that player to keep playing and get better. Are you saying that's not actually true?!?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    The 3 hardest bosses is generally what defines a raid, in NH we had star augur elisande and guldan all around 200 pulls each.
    Misstress was about 50-60, avatar 400, KJ 650. Maiden was a few pulls aswell, but most 1-2 min pulls, so hard to take the boss seriously.
    Those Mistress numbers seem awfully low. Is that "50-60 during DK cheese", before they buffed the stun to 30 seconds? Either way, she's a bitch, a huge difficulty jump and it only gets worse from there.

    NH didn't seem to receive nearly the same amount of nerfs that ToS did. Both Elisande and Augur got reworked to require more healing and less damage - meanwhile, KJ nerfs were fairly brutal to even get the first kill and there was even more after the second. And there's still way less kills than Gul'dan had during same timeframe.

    I guess we'll see what happens after the Crucible or if there will be more direct nerfs, but the later half of the instance is doing its' best to kill mythic guilds. It's like they learned nothing about proper difficulty curve after Nighthold and only made things worse. I mean, at least we didn't have to grind the Artifact, but even that will change soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm repeatedly told that content seemingly beyond a player's skill cap inspires that player to keep playing and get better. Are you saying that's not actually true?!?
    It's true for some people, but even then there's a cap of how much bullshit can people take. Mistress is a frustrating boss, far beyond what happened in Nighthold past 3/10. The fact that it only gets worse with Avatar and KJ isn't very "inspiring"... especially for those who cannot really afford to stack the best classes.

  4. #44
    Deleted
    ToS is a very unfortunate raid. It had some moments but overall I think it will always be poorly ranked.

    I think the tuning and the one-mistake-wipe model was a way for Blizzard to counter EN criticism but as usual it was the loud minority and listening to them led to this nonsense.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm repeatedly told that content seemingly beyond a player's skill cap inspires that player to keep playing and get better. Are you saying that's not actually true?!?
    These bosses aren't difficult in that they require a high skill cap. They're "difficult" in the artificial sense because a single trivial mistake instantly wipes your raid in some manner. This kind of "design" has always been criticized, especially and perhaps primarily when it's coupled with RNG or other bad design that makes it unreasonable, like needing addons.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Plastkin View Post
    These bosses aren't difficult in that they require a high skill cap. They're "difficult" in the artificial sense because a single trivial mistake instantly wipes your raid in some manner. This kind of "design" has always been criticized, especially and perhaps primarily when it's coupled with RNG or other bad design that makes it unreasonable, like needing addons.
    Aka high skill cap, in that you and your 19 friends can execute at a high level without making mistakes over the entire course of the fight.

    Or do you think Method and Exorsus RNG'd there way to victory while everyone else was walled?

    Basically every hard fight gets posts about how its "artificial" difficulty and it isn't actually hard except for <insert hard part> which makes no sense at all.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Aka high skill cap, in that you and your 19 friends can execute at a high level without making mistakes over the entire course of the fight.

    Or do you think Method and Exorsus RNG'd there way to victory while everyone else was walled?

    Basically every hard fight gets posts about how its "artificial" difficulty and it isn't actually hard except for <insert hard part> which makes no sense at all.
    Method and Exorsus both made that exact same comment regarding this bad design meant solely to increase wipe counts and take time, not because it actually makes them any more difficult. And yes, when you need 400+ pulls to get a pull where nobody fucks up, or to work through to the point where people make few enough minor mistakes to get consistently good pulls, you are RNGing your way through it.

  8. #48
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    Egh if a raid kills your guild I have to question the priorities of your members, Lasting guilds enjoy each others company as well as raid. Raiding is just a activity to do together. Yeah you might have a bad night and get on each others nerves occasionally, but I think guilds should be able to last through wipes and bad experiences if they truly like the game and like each other.

    Kil'Jaeden is a serious pisser though, not going to lie. I pity the poor sods nailing their heads against Mistress and KJ in Mythic mode. I do not want to see them anytime soon, progress be damned.
    I have eaten all the popcorn, I left none for anyone else.

  9. #49
    Mythic Mistress killed my guild a while back, but we were almost dead anyway.

  10. #50
    Deleted
    M KJ is maybe a badly designed encounter (haven't try it so can't tell my opinion), but for me Avatar and Mistress are very well designed encounter, especially Saszine. Yes, it's a hard fight, but does that mean it is badly designed? It's a very complete fight with a lot of creative/refreshing mechanics (pupper fish/shark, feeding the maw, thundershock). It requires individual responsablities, raid coordination, good positioning and a decently hard DPS check that force you to maximize numbers. As i said a very complete fight, that i enjoyed to progress on. Yes, we are still wiping a lot on the reclear (even after 5+ kills) and it can be frustrating but it's just bad play, not because of the boss design.
    When people starts wiping on hard bosses they search for excuses/scapegoats to put the blame on (anyone but themselves obviously), here it's blizzard and the boss design.
    Maybe one can argue that Misstress is badly tuned, but that's another discussion.

  11. #51
    Summer time and the grind of Legion plays a part in this also. In previous expansions there are breaks where people can let off the gas and do other things. In Legion you are on a never ending progression. It is exceptionally bad for the guilds that are doing mythic but aren't clearing it. They aren't getting any sort of pause. Don't get me wrong it is great there are things to do, but it does take it's toll on players. We have all seen people throw in the towel on here due to this and I know plenty of people myself that are just done with the hamster wheel.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by trajandreps View Post
    ToS is a very unfortunate raid. It had some moments but overall I think it will always be poorly ranked.

    I think the tuning and the one-mistake-wipe model was a way for Blizzard to counter EN criticism but as usual it was the loud minority and listening to them led to this nonsense.
    This was their model in NH it isn't as bad in ToS, it is still certainly there though. Fights like this especially multiple fights like this can quickly turn things toxic and start finger pointing in raids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuruption View Post
    I swear I've heard this before.
    Running mantra of forum naysayers each raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For gear focused people, more so item level focused people, mythic + has taken several raiders out of the pool too. Hard to commit to 3 to 12 hours a week or raiding on one toons when you can blast down 15s and higher much easier and quicker in many cases.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Basically every hard fight gets posts about how its "artificial" difficulty and it isn't actually hard except for <insert hard part> which makes no sense at all.
    It boils down to: exclusive content is good, until they were the ones being excluded.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It boils down to: exclusive content is good, until they were the ones being excluded.
    I'm not being excluded. I'm doing the content without a problem. I'm still complaining about it.

    Plenty of guilds who have done it without any problems are saying the same things.

    ????????????????????????????????????????

    Who the fuck are you talking about? It's shit design. It's not difficult, it's tedious. A handful of easy yet unreasonably unforgiving mechanics thrown at you in a completely boring and repetitive fashion isn't difficulty. "Stand in this." Well fuck me, that sounds literally impossible, guess I better uninstall. Can't be done.

    Fuck off. You two are shit at this game and it shows. You and plenty of others who like to opine without having actually done any of the content misinterpret criticisms and it's so consistent it looks intentional at this point. When we say something is too easy or is badly designed and was therefore easier than it should've been (EN for example) it's because it was. If Cenarius had 2x his HP, and had every mechanic tuned to nearly 1-shot the entire raid, it'd have been obscenely difficult yet still killable. That would've been overtuned. Instead, you could ignore just about everything including brambles mostly, have half your raid die in P2, and off-tank drakes and push boss damage to skip the hard part of the fight. If the dragons couldn't have been off-tanked, it wouldn't have been as easy. If he had 50% more HP to avoid trivialization at 880, it would've been much better. If brambles instantly 1-shot the raid if anyone got caught by them, and nothing else changed, it wouldn't have suddenly become a hard boss. It'd have been retarded and everyone would've said as much.

    People come along and point out how mechanics like this are always bullshit and completely unrewarding and uninteresting, serving only to waste time by being unforgiving, not difficult, and then you say "oh look, they wanted hard and now they're whining about it being hard." It's not hard. The fact that you actually believe that tells everyone here that you've never done anything difficult in your entire life, in video games or otherwise.
    Last edited by BiggestNoob; 2017-08-28 at 12:07 PM.

  14. #54
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GutsAP View Post
    but we were almost dead anyway.
    This is the case with every guild that dies and blames it on the tier.

  15. #55
    Deleted
    The same kind of threads were posted when NH was still current,with people complaining and crying about how the bosses after Trilliax were overtuned/tuned around 54 traits, and how they were unforgiving and a small mistake (1 person dying) would wipe you.
    But now when i read thread about Tos everyone boast about how NH was amazing and the bosses were so well-tuned.
    People always complained and cry about how it was better before.
    It's the same shit for expansions.
    During Vanilla people were complaining about a lot of things, but when BC was released everyone started saying how BC was shit and it was better before. And then same thing the next expansion, and the one after, and the one after and....
    I still remember people saying how MoP was the worst expansion ever during it because daily quest/panda and what not, and now some years later, some people now say how good of an expansion it was...
    Just dig in the MmoC archives, it's just so funny. I guess it's human nature to always complain about their situation

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Alright View Post
    This is the case with every guild that dies and blames it on the tier.
    No it is not.
    You can't just randomly state things without facts.
    One guild doesn't make it true.
    Next thing you gonna tell me this is the case for the guilds that disbanded on Avatar by your logic.

    Goddamn people in this topic are dense.

  17. #57
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Draggosh View Post
    The same kind of threads were posted when NH was still current,with people complaining and crying about how the bosses after Trilliax were overtuned/tuned around 54 traits, and how they were unforgiving and a small mistake (1 person dying) would wipe you.
    But now when i read thread about Tos everyone boast about how NH was amazing and the bosses were so well-tuned.
    People always complained and cry about how it was better before.
    It's the same shit for expansions.
    During Vanilla people were complaining about a lot of things, but when BC was released everyone started saying how BC was shit and it was better before. And then same thing the next expansion, and the one after, and the one after and....
    I still remember people saying how MoP was the worst expansion ever during it because daily quest/panda and what not, and now some years later, some people now say how good of an expansion it was...
    Just dig in the MmoC archives, it's just so funny. I guess it's human nature to always complain about their situation
    Won't disagree with this too heavily, however with respect when numbers posted earlier on show an over 50% drop in guilds killing the last boss, if NH was perceived to be overtuned (which Blizzard acknowledged it was and had to shift dps/hps requirements accordingly) then statistically this is worse, if we use the kill metric to gauge the relative difficulty of an instance. (Though a summer release will skew numbers)

    I will say that with the exception of Augur, the latter two were tuned correctly in my eyes; and I may be one of the people with rose tinted Gul'dan goggles because it allowed the raid to dictate certain metrics which would make the fight easier for their comp (us for example was 4 ranged, 10 melee, where the ranged had prydaz and we lusted P2 etc).

    It didn't really per se have too many 1shot the raid mechanics. Tomb does and that's probably the issue. When high end guilds are also stating the same thing, it's probably a sign that it isn't just the lower orders doing this.

    That being said - every guild will rise to the challenge, but my previous point still stands IMO about the long-term issues that such a model which has seen 29 (6 chinese, not tracked during NH) guilds kill KJ in 2 months, with 61/62 killing Gul'dan in 2 months (non chinese). Forces greater class stacking which depletes the further down the model you get.

    People will rise to a challenge, that much is given. But bosses tuned around one mistake being an instant wipe is alot of pressure on ordinary raiders. Certainly we've lost a fair few in this, though will see the tier out. Tiers don't kill guilds, adaptability to fights do, but Tomb has the two worst contenders with adaptability; which is instant-wipe mechanics through 1 error on 1 player and class stacking which forces lower guilds to lose said classes.

    Blizzard have however recognized this with their statements on KJ, and even the top end guilds have also stated similar in regards to the instant-wipe mechanics.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesmarcus View Post
    (...)which is instant-wipe mechanics through 1 error on 1 player and class stacking which forces lower guilds to lose said classes.
    Just to focus on one part - that's one of the main issues here. Some people don't realize how bad it is for lower guilds. "Just recruit X" doesn't work, when said X can be easily poached by a more progressed guild. It was already like that back in TBC, but recently we didn't have bosses which "required" severe stacking of specific class, outside of pure output.

    So you have people attempting a difficult boss in suboptimal setup, making them wipe more, getting more frustrated and less willing to keep at it. They'll either take a break or go to other, preferably more progressed. Guilds which are "stuck" on a boss usually don't have a whole lot of recruits - or at least recruits that would make a significant difference. It's only after you finally get past that hurdle, things improve a bit. Except here, the next guild killer boss comes far too soon.

    Either way, fuck soaking mechanics and a class that can do top dps while also trivializing them.

  19. #59
    ToS and Nighthold were both awful compared to highmaul, HFC and BRf

  20. #60
    Avatar Progression + Lack of Comp + Lack of new applies is what is eating our roster.
    We are at the bare limit for it and there are no new applies at all from at least something like 3/9M players.
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