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  1. #1

    Overall impression of healing throughput versus damage in 7.3 so far

    I realise its still very early in this patch, but to me the damage seems to be quite high compared to healing throughput, good individual damage dealers (and yes that is very biased to certain classes and specs) seem to be outputing damage on par if not above what a individual good healer can output.

    I was curious what everyone's else's impressions and experiences so far are.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ilik2345 View Post
    I realise its still very early in this patch, but to me the damage seems to be quite high compared to healing throughput, good individual damage dealers (and yes that is very biased to certain classes and specs) seem to be outputing damage on par if not above what a individual good healer can output.

    I was curious what everyone's else's impressions and experiences so far are.
    Damage is high and damage will be higher when netherlight crucible unlocks in two weeks.

    Some people think that 15 item levels to weapons is trivial but it will have a profound impact on damage output even in PVP with a template system.

  3. #3
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    Healers dying fast makes pvp a hella lot more fun imo.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    Healers dying fast makes pvp a hella lot more fun imo.
    I know what you mean, on the other hand its less fun if the healer that dies was healing you

    And i'm not so much meaning the ability of healers surviving more on the fact its hard for healers currently, even being allowed to freecast to out heal some of the damage that some specs are outputting at the moment.

    I have not done any arena yet and so i am curious of others experience, but my own from battlegrounds it almost feels that you can skip entirely cc'ing a healer as you can out damage the healing they do.
    Last edited by ilik2345; 2017-09-01 at 08:18 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Damage is high and damage will be higher when netherlight crucible unlocks in two weeks.

    Some people think that 15 item levels to weapons is trivial but it will have a profound impact on damage output even in PVP with a template system.
    except that effects healer abilities as well

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    Healers dying fast makes pvp a hella lot more fun imo.
    Find pvp boring it when devolves into a fps/pve race

  7. #7
    It's not just 7.3, healing has been the weakest it has ever been in relation to damage and health pools for all of legion.

    The other day the realization hit me that I was literally doing the same hps on my holy priest as I was doing in mop, two fucking expansions ago.

  8. #8
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    They menaged to make pvp even worse (which i guess isn't that surprising given total absence of that topic in patch notes). Im actually impressed.

  9. #9
    If a single DPSer can do more damage than a healer can heal, there is literally no reason to bring healers to PVP.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ilik2345 View Post
    I know what you mean, on the other hand its less fun if the healer that dies was healing you

    And i'm not so much meaning the ability of healers surviving more on the fact its hard for healers currently, even being allowed to freecast to out heal some of the damage that some specs are outputting at the moment.

    I have not done any arena yet and so i am curious of others experience, but my own from battlegrounds it almost feels that you can skip entirely cc'ing a healer as you can out damage the healing they do.
    But there's also less stuns, snares and roots....... I mean not necessarily compared to 7.2.5 but just in general. There is no reason that a DPS should kill a healer in under the time a DPS can kill a DPS (even if the other healer is free casting) outside of like you said VERY minor circumstances.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Azarak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    If a single DPSer can do more damage than a healer can heal, there is literally no reason to bring healers to PVP.
    Even as a warlock I have yet to come across a healer in BGs that I can't kill with all my rifts, dark soul, and firestone into channel demonfire. I often don't even need to stun or interrupt, I just use my imp for more damage and the dispel because I don't need the interrupt. Only paladins are safe with bubble. Other things like DR cooldowns or life cocoon I just melt through anyway. And warlocks aren't even as bursty as some melee, plus melee and interrupt the heals while bursting. Maybe the healers I find in BGs arent very good, I dont know.
    Last edited by Azarak; 2017-09-01 at 10:54 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ilik2345 View Post
    I know what you mean, on the other hand its less fun if the healer that dies was healing you
    This is the dynamic. World of Warcraft has traditionally always had a fucked up healer-to-damage-dealer relationship in PvP, and it's always shown very hard. If a DPS is killing a healer, the healer and the healer has no teammates around to peel the attacker from them, then the healer should fucking die 10 out of 10 times. If a healer can out-heal someone's incoming damage, then the healer is fucking broken and you have a busted PvP system.

    The way a healer works in any game worth a single grain of competitive salt (be it an FPS or a MOBA or an MMO or whatever) is that their heals are supplemental to survival; survival should not be based on healing. Heals will help keep you up, but you need to somehow outmaneuver or defeat your enemy or else you'll just die anyways.

    Compare World of Warcraft to Overwatch (Overwatch is basically the WoW of bad FPS games, after all). Imagine if Reaper had a Mercy healing him and because of that, a Tracer was completely unable to kill him; her dps is outmatched by the Mercy's healing. Do you know what kind of game that'd turn Overwatch into? A boring, slow-moving stalemate factory where fights drag on for way too fucking long.

    Such is the state of WoW PvP. Go ahead and watch some streams or videos of arena gameplay. It's fucking intolerably god damn slow and boring and 90% of the match is essentially nothing happening. Healbloat in WoW further destroys an already poorly balanced PvP system. Fights should be short, decisive and based mainly around meta tactics like LoS/castjukes/cd prediction. WoW is a shitty MMO so it has to play to its ingrained strengths if you want interesting PvP content, and heal/sustainability bloat has always been a problem the game's PvP has suffered from.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    If a DPS is killing a healer, the healer and the healer has no teammates around to peel the attacker from them, then the healer should fucking die 10 out of 10 times.
    Can't say i agree with this at all, You could argue that blizzard is moving towards healing being more of a support that to survive a healer needs peels from a dps as much as the dps needs heals, i can see the value of that idea. Although i am not exactly sure how fun it is for the healer. They went this way quite a bit with PVE they pushed a lot from healers keeping tanks up to the tanks managing their own healing and cd's - and at least for me, the net effect was you only feel needed by bad tanks or very high damage situations, those same situations where you can't save a dps if they make a mistake as it effectively one shots them.

    However, if your simply saying a healer should always die vs a dps then why ever take a healer? Unless equally the healer is able to kill the dps.
    Last edited by ilik2345; 2017-09-02 at 02:11 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ilik2345 View Post
    However, if your simply saying a healer should always die vs a dps then why ever take a healer? Unless equally the healer is able to kill the dps.
    Once again, I draw a comparison to a game like Overwatch, or even Team Fortress 2 (granted I understand these are both FPS-type games, but the comparison is still a valid one, when you fit the comparison's philosophy into WoW). Imagine if Soldier 76 was shooting a Junkrat but because he was being healed by Mercy, Soldier 76 isn't able to kill Junkrat. He has to have either one to two other DPS trained on Junkrat, or he needs someone to incapacitate the Mercy. Now imagine if Mercy was able to straight up 1v1 a Soldier 76 (under normal circumstances; let's assume they're both equally skilled players and all).

    The way a healer/support character works in pretty much every single game that isn't World of Warcraft is that they're a supplemental support. They need people to peel attackers off of them, because that's the relationship dynamic. You protect your healer, they heal you. It's symbiotic.

    World of Warcraft occasionally has something that resembles this dynamic, depending on which expansion/patch you're PvPing in, but there's never been a moment in the game (since Arenas were released in TBC) that there hasn't been hideous amounts of heal-bloat slowing down fights and causing arena matches to drag on to fucking oblivion.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    uhhhh, I get people that think it's totally ok for a dps to absolutely destroy a healer in a global - I bet people that have never played a healer think that's just a normal thing..

    In reality though: the pvp side of wow is balanced around 3's.. and if ANY class can INSTANTLY global a healer without Dampening ( http://www.wowhead.com/spell=110310/dampening ) - then get ready for a shit fuck ton of 3 v 3 FULL DPS teams, and absolutely 0 healers.

    Why be a fucken healer when you can't survive ONE single guy on you? Also: I get people think healers are some godly creatures or something, but .. everyone has self healing.. Have fun killing a dps AS A HEALER.

    It's just bullshit lol

  16. #16
    If I am not mistaken, at the moment, aren't Resto Shaman actually incredibly meta? Pretty certain they're all over higher level arenas.

    Healers survive because they have teammates who peel and protect them. Again, that's the dynamic. A healer should die to a DPS if it's just a healer and a DPS. This is like locking in Mercy (again with the Overwatch comparison, I know), running out and dying to a Junkrat and then complaining "WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING MERCY IF 1 JUNKRAT KILLS ME?????".

  17. #17
    i like the variation of damage/healing output of various specs so far

    imo it's totally cool if the DPS of SOME specs is higher than the HPS of SOME healers

    for instance having a frost DK being able to 'beat' a mistweaver monk makes total sense to me, on the other hand having a mage beating a holy paladin in output would be insane

    there are many ways to survive damage: defensives, kiting, cc, los. healing is just one of them, different methods should be more effective against different specs

    generally if kills are next to impossible without dampening there's something wrong with the game design, playing not to kill but to just pressure a healer's mana pool is miserable and unrewarding

    so imo we're good currently

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Donimic View Post
    except that effects healer abilities as well
    Damage is going to outstrip healing with the netherforge unlock. In before someone tells me these numbers don't matter.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Once again, I draw a comparison to a game like Overwatch, or even Team Fortress 2 (granted I understand these are both FPS-type games, but the comparison is still a valid one, when you fit the comparison's philosophy into WoW). ...
    I'd agree for the most part. Healers in the better PvP games are not meant to be livelords, or to make other chars livelords. They're meant as support classes, not gods.

    I played the alpha and beta of TF2, and Valve actually listened to suggestions about balance then and were quick to make needed changes. By the time it hit the market, the 9 classes were fairly well balanced in their various roles, with only a few classes needing some slight tweaks (IIRC Spy and Demoman were still a bit OP at live but they fixed it very shortly). Also it had only 1 healer class, not 2 or 3. As we know TF2 turned out to be very popular and a ton of fun to play. But just like Blizzard, when Valve got too greedy the game went off the rails and a lot of people quit.

    Yes, you could take a Medic and with a Heavy Weapons Guy or Pyro you could own - for a minute or so. But a good team would usually target the Medic (which was not terribly hard to kill) and that play would end. Medic had decent damage if you ran into one solo and if you weren't careful they could kill you, but they didn't just tank damage and self-heal through the roof. They generally had to run or get help or soon they'd be dead.

    That's where WoW has had it wrong for too long. Healers should be support and have their role, not mini-bosses and not making a team invincible.
    Last edited by Caolela; 2017-09-05 at 02:08 AM.

  20. #20
    Yup, healers have had way too much healing power in PVP for a while now. They should not be able to easily out heal even one DPS's damage in a 1v1 scenario as long as they are both fairly evenly skilled, let alone keeping their team alive for ages against several people.

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