Poland calls for WWII reparations talks with Germany, mooting trillion dollar payment

[Mehrunes]

They did not Start the Aggression...... Stop this fucking Lie

Yeah, Germans were totally invited into Poland in 1939. Wait, then what's this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II? Fuck off with your Nazi apologism.

All evidence to the contrary, lol. Love it when people thing generational reparations are a "pretty simple concept".

What evidence would that be? The German state is a legal entity and it has its own obligations. Which includes obligations inherited from the states its a successor to. An obligation is pretty basic legal concept.

So we are all responsible for our great-grandparents actions? You? Me? And how far back does that go?

And Germany isn't the same country as it was in 1930-1940's - so why do those people, who had no choice in whether their great-grandparents went to war or not, have to now pay for something they were never involved in?

It is still the successor of that country. As such it's a direct continuation of an entity that was very much involved in the war and benefited from it at the expense of everyone the German people deemed to be subhuman filth. And it goes as far back as there is legal ground for it. There was legal ground for the reparations for war of aggression in 1940s and since there no expiration date on reparations, it will go on forever until the issue is resolved. Unlike stuff like slavery, since here is no legal framework for that.

Then they should try and get their reperation from Russia, not from states that don't exists anymore, such as Prussia.

Those are two different issues, so no. And I'm not sure why you brought up Prussia as no one mentioned it.

You know, when you think about it, Germany didn't really exist after WWII - divided as it was between the US and USSR. So Unified Germany is a new state. And didn't Poland get a big piece of Germany after the war?

From Russia, not from Germany. For the land (more land that was given back) that Russia took for itself. Russia trading land with Poland (and trading is a generous term here since it's not like Poland had a choice) doesn't exactly resolve Poland's issues with Germany, does it?

then go complain to yours and grandpas slave master, there is no offer of a new door, never said there was, the question is why should there be ? grandpa is dead and as you yourself said , grandpa as well as the homeowner where forced to drop the issue, that aspect isn't grandpas fault anymore then it is the homeowners

"well i wanted to say sorry, i really mean it, let me buy you a new front door" was part of your comparison... Try to remember what you said yourself, could you? And Grandpa isn't dead. Federal Republic of Germany is successor state of the Third Reich. It's grandpa with a new coat of paint. Even if it was not the case, it'd still be Germany the grandchild benefiting from the money the Germany the grandpa stole. Proceeds of crime don't belong to the family of the criminal. Especially since it wasn't even laundered in this case. And Russia forcing decisions onto Poland under duress not only has no bearing on Poland, it's also void because of the duress.

I know this comes a couple of days late.

In Europa Universalis 4, if you play any of the Eastern European countries, Poland is a major power to deal with until Russia gets big enough to start craving away territory.

With the Teutonic Order and Konigsberg being a major part of Prussia, and early Germany, and you see the major objective for Poland is conquering it and becoming the Commonwealth with a Personal Union with Lithuania.

Poland succeeded in this endevour in the early 14th century.

Brandenburg and Prussia began shortly after in the late 15th and early 16th century, cutting off the trade routes in the Baltic for the Commonwealth, effectively killing it. This ensues a dire and drastic enemy for Poland for a very long time.

If you look back the history, Poland has always been the aggressor until the early 19th. Poland and Germany have been enemies for a very long time, and reparations aren't really needed.

If you give in to the blackmail, Poland will come back for more later.

Congrats on getting your knowledge from a video game while ignoring the earlier period. Teutonic Order was hired by Poland to deal with the conversion of Old Prussians, with the deal being they'd control those lands as vassals of Konrad I of Masovia. But while doing so, they accidentally annexed Dobrzyń Land Konrad I already gave to a monk order, without his knowledge or acceptance and when shit hit the fan, they shat on the whole deal and asked the HRE emperor to give the whole land to them as an independent state. That didn't pan out, but in the end the territory was split.

And Poland has always been the aggressor until the early 19th century? Never mind that by the very start of the 19th century didn't exist anymore, so no shit Poland was not aggressive in early 19th century. But it was the Teutonic Order who annexed Danzig territory from Poland. It was Teutonic Order that refused to give it back despite the pope ordering them to, then bribed France to force the pope to cancel that order some time later (since that was happening during the period of Avignon Papacy). 1327? Teutonic Order attacked Poland together with Mecklemburg and Bohemia. Followed by a period of Teutonic raids into Greater Poland and Kuyavia. Stopped only after a series of papal judgments that called the Order to return Pomerania (which they shat on each subsequent time). Great War of 1409? Started by Teutonic Order.

The first war started by Poland was in 1454 when Poland supported a burgher revolt. It ended with Teutonic Order returning the lands they stole earlier and kept illegally despite multiple popes telling them to fuck off from there (even though as a religious order they were ultimately subjects of the pope). The order also agreed to become a vassal of Poland, but that lasted only till the death of the current master. The following ones shat on their vassal obligations and eventually demanded the territory they lost as a result of the 1454 war, even though by papal verdicts it was never theirs. That forced Poland to war in Polish-Teutonic war of 1519-1521. After Teutonic Order lost it, they secularized and became Polish vassal for good.

That is, until Sweden steamrolled through Poland during the deluge (which, imagine that, was not started by Poland), when the following Duchy of Prussia smelled an occasion and broke their vassal oath, aiding the advancing Swedish forces. An interesting note, shortly before that happened, Prussian branch of the Hohenzollern died out, creating a personal union between Brandenburg and Prussia, in response to which many Prussian nobles asked the Polish king for full incorporation of Prussia into Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, to which he refused.

There were no further conflicts between Poland and Brandenburg-Prussia in the time it existed. Then it became the Kingdom of Prussia. The first war with Poland? Whoopty doo, they fought on the same side, in Russia-led coalition against Sweden. And after that there was no conflict until partitions of Poland, in which Poland was totes legit the aggressor, amirite?

Fuck off with your historical revisionism based on absolute squat.

[cubby]

What evidence would that be? The German state is a legal entity and it has its own obligations. Which includes obligations inherited from the states its a successor to. An obligation is pretty basic legal concept.

You could argue that the German state that existed in 1945 ceased to be after 1945, divided by the conquerors. Literally. Those who new entities had no further obligations past what was negotiated and agreed upon by the victors - including Poland (even if you disagree that they were well represented - which could absolutely be true, but isn't modern Germany's fault).

Let me ask this another way - what did post-war Germany agree to, regarding Poland, that it hasn't fulfilled yet?

It is still the successor of that country. As such it's a direct continuation of an entity that was very much involved in the war and benefited from it at the expense of everyone the German people deemed to be subhuman filth. And it goes as far back as there is legal ground for it. There was legal ground for the reparations for war of aggression in 1940s and since there no expiration date on reparations, it will go on forever until the issue is resolved. Unlike stuff like slavery, since there is no legal framework for that.

Slavery in the US has a legal framework for reparations - so how far back do we go? And at what point do the sins of the father not fall up his son? I'm still deeply concerned that you think I should be responsible for my great-grandfather's actions.

And why are there no expiration on reparations? Ever? If this isn't resolved in the next 200 years will the great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren of Nazi Germany still be on the hook?

I'm asking sincerely because you're arguing a legal framework for nation-to-nation reparations, and very rarely, if ever, are the father's sins conveyed to the son. Even financial debt doesn't transfer generations - it can wipe out an estate (father dies with debt, debt paid off before any moneys are passed to son, as an example) - but the remaining debt is cleared upon death.

As should any reparations Poland feels they are owed by Nazi Germany - whom died in 1945.

And speaking of payment, didn't Poland get a big piece of East Germany as payment?

[Deleted]

"well i wanted to say sorry, i really mean it, let me buy you a new front door" was part of your comparison... Try to remember what you said yourself, would you? And Grandpa isn't dead. Federal Republic of Germany is successor state of the Third Reich. It's grandpa with a new coat of paint. Even if it was not the case, it'd still be Germany the grandchild benefiting from the money the Germany the grandpa stole. Proceeds of crime don't belong to the family of the criminal. Especially since it wasn't even laundered in this case. And Russia forcing decisions onto Poland under duress not only has no bearing on Poland, it's also void because of the duress.

i remember quite clearly what i wrote there, and i said that the comparison made was not "grandpa shit on the neighbors front door, go apologize in the familys name" but "grandpa did this thing ages ago, before you where born even and he already said sorry , go lets buy the neighbor a new front door" e.g. thats what some people seem to expect, never did i with a single sentence imply that this should be or is in fact done. aside from that the whole sucessor state rherotic if we take it at that is wonky at best, going by that we could make even more of a case for reparations for wars fought 500+ years ago, and about the duress thing ? okay fine, every cent any country ever paid as reparations in that case need to be voided because obviously losing countries in a war pay reparations under duress, stop trying to act like countrys are people, poland had a chance to make demands, you say that chance was denied by being pressured by russia so go ahead an demand your money you lost from russia cause it's their fault you where forced to say it's fine with you

[zealo]

I know this comes a couple of days late.

In Europa Universalis 4, if you play any of the Eastern European countries, Poland is a major power to deal with until Russia gets big enough to start craving away territory.

With the Teutonic Order and Konigsberg being a major part of Prussia, and early Germany, and you see the major objective for Poland is conquering it and becoming the Commonwealth with a Personal Union with Lithuania.

Poland succeeded in this endevour in the early 14th century.

Brandenburg and Prussia began shortly after in the late 15th and early 16th century, cutting off the trade routes in the Baltic for the Commonwealth, effectively killing it. This ensues a dire and drastic enemy for Poland for a very long time.

If you look back the history, Poland has always been the aggressor until the early 19th. Poland and Germany have been enemies for a very long time, and reparations aren't really needed.

If you give in to the blackmail, Poland will come back for more later.

The state of the world in 1444 as far as major borders goes is pretty good, but history is a fair deal more complex than EU4 might give the impression off. There is historical context both before and after it that needs to be paid attention to for any reasonable argument, and you're not going to find that in a game but rather a visit to the history books in your local library of choice. In fact, the start date is pretty deliberate because it's one day after the Battle Of Varna, but it makes no real effort to teach about just how significant that was.

The reason the Teutonic Order even moved into the region to begin with was in order to christen the Baltic region, among them Lithuania etc being full of pagans. It's just silly drawing upon a game as an argument for just about anything when it quickly goes off the rails the moment you unpause.

[Erbel]

Hence the "that" but fair cop you aren't a native English speaker.

Unless you meant "because they are taking migrants and getting money for it; they should get more money for the migrants but because of WW2"?

You can I assume see how that doesn't make sense, right

What are you talking about? Poland currently gets virtually no money for taking migrants in. They get it due to being more agriculturally oriented than most EU countries and their high population. Hence why I said more money cause of "WW2 reparations" in addition to the current amount they're getting for other reasons.

And anybody who isn't a fucking moron knows Poland's request has less to do with WW2 and more to do with the EU trying to force them into taking in a feral invasive species that has been steadily destroying every country it spreads to. They're completely in the right for wanting to protect themselves from that or at the very least wanting more money in exchange for putting up with it.

[Cyberowl]

Why are countries/people crying about the past so much lately?

Populists.

That's how the tiny man won the election for PiS, that's why he tries again (and again) ((and again)).

[Jokerfiend]

The state of the world in 1444 as far as major borders goes is pretty good, but history is a fair deal more complex than EU4 might give the impression off. There is historical context both before and after it that needs to be paid attention to for any reasonable argument, and you're not going to find that in a game but rather a visit to the history books in your local library of choice. In fact, the start date is pretty deliberate because it's one day after the Battle Of Varna, but it makes no real effort to teach about just how significant that was.

The reason the Teutonic Order even moved into the region to begin with was in order to christen the Baltic region, among them Lithuania etc being full of pagans. It's just silly drawing upon a game as an argument for just about anything when it quickly goes off the rails the moment you unpause.

Oh, I know this.

I understand the history it's why I bought the game in the first place. Also the game has a histories that you can read for each country, it's basically has a mini wiki for each country.

Read the wiki for region, it basically goes like this.

1200 - The Order is kicked out by force in Wallachia
1250 -The Order reestablishes in the Old Prussian territory
1250's - The Order is establishes relations with Brandenburg and the HRE
1300 - Order and Polish rule clash of over the Danzig and Pomerellia - the aggressor being Poland
1400 - Order is ousted again
1450's - Order regains some grounds after Varna
1500 - Order isn't backed by Christians anymore

The Order is constantly backed by the HRE and Brandenburg, for roughly 300 years. By either treaty(Colin) or (Soldin), it show cooperation of people. While, Poland is constantly vying for it's land. Until Poland took it over at the end of the 15th. But last until the Deluge, and the rise of the Kingdom of Prussia in the 18th.

Germany and Poland are enemies for 400 years. With the aggressor being Poland in the 1300's.

Nothing I said was wrong in the slightest.

[Acidz]

I'd say let symphatizers and adherents of nazism pay for the damages caused by their ideological forefathers.

[Pannonian]

Oh, I know this.

I understand the history it's why I bought the game in the first place. Also the game has a histories that you can read for each country, it's basically has a mini wiki for each country.

Read the wiki for region, it basically goes like this.

1200 - The Order is kicked out by force in Wallachia
1250 -The Order reestablishes in the Old Prussian territory
1250's - The Order is establishes relations with Brandenburg and the HRE
1300 - Order and Polish rule clash of over the Danzig and Pomerellia - the aggressor being Poland
1400 - Order is ousted again
1450's - Order regains some grounds after Varna
1500 - Order isn't backed by Christians anymore

The Order is constantly backed by the HRE and Brandenburg, for roughly 300 years. By either treaty(Colin) or (Soldin), it show cooperation of people. While, Poland is constantly vying for it's land. Until Poland took it over at the end of the 15th. But last until the Deluge, and the rise of the Kingdom of Prussia in the 18th.

Germany and Poland are enemies for 400 years. With the aggressor being Poland in the 1300's.

Nothing I said was wrong in the slightest.

And the best way to get rid of heirs is to put them on boats... obviously it worked for Henry I. so EU4 must be right in any situation!

As pointed out in the posts above its very easy to argue that the teutonic order was the aggressor in the first place. While EU4 has rather detailed information about borders, please read further than province history.

OT: This is more or less an old story. Every time poland gets criticized it brings up war reparations. Same happened a few years back with greece and germany. Its kind of moot and just for political points. No one takes that seriously.

[Easo]

Have you seriously brought up EU IV now? I think this topic has run it's course. The populistic demands are not going to be enforced anyways.

[Deleted]

Germany's reparations are entirely separate matter from EU budget. A budget that all EU countries, Germany included, accepted.

And accepting refugees is also what they signed on for. No refugees, no financial aid. Pretty simple.

[Ravenblade]

They did not Start the Aggression...... Stop this fucking Lie

The first lie, revolving around how WWI was ended, was the story of being stabbed in the back. In reality the upper monarchic elite used the burgeouise elite as pawn sacrifice since it was deemed to go against their honour to admit defeat in the face of the arch-enemy. The burgeouisie had no problem with doing what was asked from them as it as it was sick and tired of that War of the Royal Cousins - as the first world war was sometimes dubbed later - which brought millions of deaths of people on all sides. They did not do this on their own, they did it because Ludendorff and Hindenburg were too snobby and too cowardious to do it on their own. There's plenty of documents which prove how long they even tried to wiggle around inevitable. If the Kiel mutiny would not have happened we might still be sitting here at Verdun which might now be plastered in kilometer-thick layer of dead soldiers, shrapnel and steel wrecks.

The second lie was that Poland did cause the aggression which is an interesting twist to what actually happened. Truth is Hitler already had a clear vision of what was going to happen: Give us Danzig and a corridor and join our pact OR we will invade you, Poland ignored it because Hitler did "accidentally" already tell before his real plans and Poles understood German perfectly well, Hitler realized that and added a "ok, ok, just the corridor and Danzig and we won't attack you for, say, 25 years. Okay?" option which was not taken up by Poland at all mainly because they realized that they would become vasals just like Slovakia AND that Germany would attack anyways. Poland didn't agree but since Germany was still bound by the agreement which banned attack wars they required a reason to attack them and that was by creating a scenario of defense, see false flag Gleiwitz incident.

[Raakel]

In 1992, the Foundation for Polish-German Reconciliation was founded by the Polish and German governments, and as a result Germany paid Polish sufferers ca. 4.7 billion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations

http://www.fpnp.pl


What many people often forget or neglect, Germany has established many of the same kind of foundations in other countries as well. Recognized Nazi victims get pensions etc.... This is not big news also but for many years Germany did a kind of 'checkbook diplomacy' whenever there was a bigger conflict. In order to not send troops (Gulf War for example) they gave billions in EURO and foreign aid.

And did you think the German reunification came free of charge?? There went also billions to surounding countries as foreign aid in order to get their vote pro reunification.

It's simply a sign of total ignorance if you don't inform yourself what has been done and payed for decades to make everyone happy with Germany again.

I'd say keep those foundations and do memorial stuff but that's got to be it! There's no point in carrying this on for the next 1000 years just to make every one happy.

[Ravenblade]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations

http://www.fpnp.pl


What many people often forget or neglect, Germany has established many of the same kind of foundations in other countries as well. Recognized Nazi victims get pensions etc.... This is not big news also but for many years Germany did a kind of 'checkbook diplomacy' whenever there was a bigger conflict. In order to not send troops (Gulf War for example) they gave billions in EURO and foreign aid.

And did you think the German reunification came free of charge?? There went also billions to surounding countries as foreign aid in order to get their vote pro reunification.

It's simply a sign of total ignorance if you don't inform yourself what has been done and payed for decades to make everyone happy with Germany again.

I'd say keep those foundations and do memorial stuff but that's got to be it! There's no point in carrying this on for the next 1000 years just to make every one happy.

Germany had to give up terroritories, not just conquered ones but in addition to what they lost after WWI the remaining lands as well. If there are reparations in order then, as I said earlier already, this should be considered as well since reparations isn't just money. Reparations are based on efforts. Money can lose its value entirely even if you constantly would adjust to inflation and other fluctuations whereas other values remain and even gain value which is why a lot people of old said they would have rather paid billions and worked for their debts instead of losing their lands. Land obviously had a lot more value than a single coin to them. It's an collection of ideas, ideals, traditions, connections and the feeling of belonging there and being at home which was entirely lost. I'd agree to a compensational fund, which already exists, but reparations should be set up in an entirely different manner.

The early terroritory of the DDR for instance lost most of their industry and infrastructure in order to pay reparations of their infrastructure. Most railway tracks were left with one rail for instance. The last wagon filled with reparations left end of 1989 iirc.

[Acidz]

So it seems the Polish prime-minister has just announced that Poland is preparing an official claim.

Would be best if Germany subjugated their Polish neighbours again.

[Deleted]

So it seems the Polish prime-minister has just announced that Poland is preparing an official claim.

So if the Poland/Germany peace settlement of WW2 was not legally binding, then Poland and Germany is still at war and Poland occupies German territory that is legally German......

[Deleted]

Germany should pay. Poland is the only country that send us a birthday card with 5-million signatures.

[Deleted]

Poland will put Germany and Ukraine on knees and force them to pay for crimes against us. We will sue them and that is for sure – bit. do / dJLDJ
Every crime must be punished! Of course money won't bring back those who suffered because of Germany and Ukraine, but it would be good for Poland's future generations and our strong country!