So, can we call Legion a bust for anyone who played Ret, and what's in it for 8.0?

[NathSB]

I think it's technically Tirion's spirit duplicating your attack to help you. Still looks stupid though.

I never realized this, to be fair. They should have summoned a ghostly Tirion then.

[Deleted]

With 7.3 released and seemingly nothing significant on the horizon for Retribution Paladins other than a different Tier set, can we now safely assume this expac is just a write-off for us in terms of having our issues addressed?

Does anyone still think Blizzard will do something at this point before next expac (other than the obvious pre-expac patch)? If so, what would you expect from them?

Finally, last question, what's your 8.0 prediction or even hopes for the spec? Do you see a return to MoP/WoD gameplay, or just a refined version of our current Colossus Smash 2.0 gameplay with better options than Crusade-only?

I've been Ret since 7.0 and just holding out for hopes that we'd eventually get somewhere. I am now under the impression that until 8.0 and a full new-expac rework Blizzard is just too afraid to screw around with our spec and its dependance on Crusade is a huge factor in that; they don't want to break the one talent that makes us even remotely competitive.

I do hope they can keep this playstyle though. The deliberatness and "feel" of the rotation wasn't bad at all for me anyway, but just offered very little in terms of output, especially for Single-Target situations. I think the low-RNG of it was a good thing, but it had other issues that made our output sub-par. I'd like 8.0 to be an improvement on our 7.0 rework rather than a full breakdown amd rebuild of the spec.

wow you are Ret since 7.0 already? wow omg....

after all the hardships through wow history (and the BC overpoweredness that was a big ton of fun ofc) this is one of the best Ret iterations we had so far.

[Reith]

wow you are Ret since 7.0 already? wow omg....

after all the hardships through wow history (and the BC overpoweredness that was a big ton of fun ofc) this is one of the best Ret iterations we had so far.

This is objectively false. Do I have to list all the stuff ret lost? Because it's a lot, and I'd rather not. Some aspects are good, but overall it's meh and wouldn't be difficult to improve, which is the point. It's not difficult at all to make it better than it is right now.

[Eurytos]

Only other one that comes close is probably Demonology.

Agree here too.
Demonology was so much fun when you could transform into a demon! That was so bad ass.
And it was different before then, significantly. I still play it because I like it, but I'll give deference to any long term Demonologist who can tell me why other forms were better.

But seriously, how much can be removed from a spec before it becomes a shell of its former self? Is the spot on the meter the only thing that determines if you play something? If the numbers are big enough, would you be satisfied with Avenging Wrath stripped away? How many concessions is one willing to make in order to keep playing "ret". Its a goddamn RINO. No, not that RINO, but Ret in name only.

The only thing that is keeping Ret Ret these days is the fact we still have wings and a judgment ability, a real shit judgment ability, but its still there nonetheless. No seals, no dot, no consecration, no auras, no HoW, no Exorcism, reduced blessings, reduced raid utility, judgement facing requirement and travel time and no seal/dot interactions, no seal swapping at all, no hand of sacrifice, no divine protection, and I could go on. We've been going on. These are the things that make a ret paladin a ret paladin.

[Sigxy]

Did anyone watch the arenas yesterday on twitch during that event? Only saw a few games but whenever a Retribution paladin was around, that never seemed to end well. ;_:

[Goobaman]

I'm coming around on this idea of Wrath as a resource. I think it could be cool. First, scrap mana altogether.
Not our main resource, but as a secondary resource that builds up by using abilities and Holy Power. And when it reaches certain amounts, other abilities can be used.

For instance, from 10-50% Wrath, any non damaging ability has its utility buffed. Flash of Light does increased healing, Hand spells do their job more effectively, whatever. Each increased utility costing about 10% Wrath.

And, maybe, from 50%-100% Wrath, you can use Hammer of Wrath. It does more dmg the more Wrath is consumed. And when actually in execute range, the amount depleted is half, allowing more HoW. Something like that I think would be really cool and interesting. Its a clear tradeoff, sacrificing some HoW for a utility spell, but likely that HoW would be used most often in a strictly pve scenario.

Out of combat heals could cost nothing, or they could bring back the old instant and free Flash of Light after a kill, or just have Wrath generate to 50% while out of combat, so we can heal ourselves. Some quality of life things there, since mana is gone.

Scrapping mana and using a Wrath type resource could be interesting and has a lot of potential I think.

So you're suggesting Wrath be used similar to Maelstrom for Shaman? Maybe something where abilities are baseline no cost, Holy Power exists and expending Holy Power generates Wrath, which could be used to fuel some spells AND also enhance others.

Perhaps they bring Exo and HoW back. Exo can be cast at any point and deals moderate damage plus generates one HP. But when used at 50 Wrath, it applies a DoT. or it becomes AoE, leaves a debuff to interact with your next HP spender or maybe generates TWO Holy Power. Something.

However, HoW can ONLY be cast with X Wrath, period. Perhaps there can be traits and talents that all Wrath spenders to cause an interaction with HP spenders to create some ebb and flow in their rotation?

[Morally Grey Storm]

wow you are Ret since 7.0 already? wow omg....

after all the hardships through wow history (and the BC overpoweredness that was a big ton of fun ofc) this is one of the best Ret iterations we had so far.

You will not troll here.

[Eurytos]

So you're suggesting Wrath be used similar to Maelstrom for Shaman? Maybe something where abilities are baseline no cost, Holy Power exists and expending Holy Power generates Wrath, which could be used to fuel some spells AND also enhance others.

Perhaps they bring Exo and HoW back. Exo can be cast at any point and deals moderate damage plus generates one HP. But when used at 50 Wrath, it applies a DoT. or it becomes AoE, leaves a debuff to interact with your next HP spender or maybe generates TWO Holy Power. Something.

However, HoW can ONLY be cast with X Wrath, period. Perhaps there can be traits and talents that all Wrath spenders to cause an interaction with HP spenders to create some ebb and flow in their rotation?

Yeah, I guess I was. I kept thinking in the back of my head that this was either posited already by someone or that I had used it before, but i couldnt remember what it was...apparently its with shamans.

I agree. It's an idea that I hope enough ppl are talking about(not wrath necessarily, but the fixing of ret) that they take in to consideration when/if they actually do something. DO SOMETHING! hehe

[Deleted]

This is objectively false. Do I have to list all the stuff ret lost? Because it's a lot, and I'd rather not. Some aspects are good, but overall it's meh and wouldn't be difficult to improve, which is the point. It's not difficult at all to make it better than it is right now.

its actually subjectively true. Please list all the stuff you lost.

[tru]

its actually subjectively true. Please list all the stuff you lost.

Actually if you have paid attention to this thread one page back a guy lists pretty much what was lost.

[Konteil]

ret is disjointed now. its still fun to play but the amount of gear and enchants needed to be on par with someone who isnt chanted at all is incredible. we got smacked in the face haaaard with the nerfbat. and the set bonus of ToS isnt worth it because it takes too much away from haste. nonsense. for referene i raid Heroic every week and have just started into the mythic scene.

[Taeldorian]

ret is disjointed now. its still fun to play but the amount of gear and enchants needed to be on par with someone who isnt chanted at all is incredible. we got smacked in the face haaaard with the nerfbat. and the set bonus of ToS isnt worth it because it takes too much away from haste. nonsense. for referene i raid Heroic every week and have just started into the mythic scene.

What the hell are you talking about?

The 4 piece bonus from ToS is amazing for ret. It’s a huge dps increase and it also speeds up the rotation and makes it more fluid. It’s the best ret has had this expac.

That’s the main thing I’m worried about next tier. The rotation currently isn’t bad due to the 4p, gonna have to see how the T21 tier will do since it also generates HoPo but it probably won’t be as fun/fluid as it is now.

[killwithpwr]

its actually subjectively true. Please list all the stuff you lost.

You for real mate?

- Hammer of Wrath
- Seals
- Emancipate
- Better movement spells (Speed of Light and Long Arm of the Law)
- Execution Sentance baseline (even the talent we have now is a crappy shadow of the spell that was a couple of years ago...)
- Blessing of Sacrifice
- Divine Protection (Shield of Vengance doesn't compare)

Just off the top of my head,

On top of that, some added abilities makes Retribution worse than it ever was:

- Retribution Passive
- Judgement "Colossal Smash" Debuff
- A fist full of dead talents (Consecration, Execution Sentence, Greater Judgement (subject to change in Antorus), Virtues Blade, Judgement of Light and biggest culprit of them all - Holy Wrath.)

It might not seem so to you, but Legion Ret pretty much got the shaft.

It is subjective of course how fun the spec is, and i still *Somewhat* enjoy it myself, But, Mechanically - Retribution is at a low point currently.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Are we going to go with subjective-objective again?
Feth subjectiveness.
Objectively - how does Ret fare in PvP?
Objectively - how does Ret fare in Slaying of Scripted Dragons?

People can find anything and everything fun and interesting from subjective PoV, but that's not how an arguement is made.

[DrMcNinja]

Doesn't matter to me, I've hung up my golden armor permanently and embraced the path of shadow.

Warlock is so much more rewarding to play than Ret. It's been a long time coming, but I'm no longer willing to struggle with it.

It feels weird doesn't it? Here you are building this holy power but you don't even notice the effects of building up that big hit.

Next thing I hear there's this talk on how "Judgeadin" might be the best for Antorus where we just have a big truck load of mastery and Judgment does a huge hit.

That's definitely not what Ret needs.

[Laurabelle]

[Gloriandus]

Next thing I hear there's this talk on how "Judgeadin" might be the best for Antorus where we just have a big truck load of mastery and Judgment does a huge hit.

Assuming no radical changes, T21 might be a return the Haste and Mastery stacking, a la MoP?

The 4 piece bonus from ToS is amazing for ret. It’s a huge dps increase and it also speeds up the rotation and makes it more fluid. It’s the best ret has had this expac.

That’s the main thing I’m worried about next tier. The rotation currently isn’t bad due to the 4p, gonna have to see how the T21 tier will do since it also generates HoPo but it probably won’t be as fun/fluid as it is now.

I have a second Ret without the T20 4-piece and it feels so slow without that instant 3 HP, so much so that I don't play it other than to do WQs to funnel rewards to my main.

[QTface]

As much as I'm not a big fan of current ret, I wish they would give us back Hammer of Wrath. It was one of the icon spells other classes knew rets had. Even if they made it usable only during wings I would be happy.

As I get used to the crappy judgement system, I would be a lot happier if Wake of Ashes put judgement on all the mobs it hit. Would it make us overpowered? I don't really see how. Arms warriors have it and they just do crazy aoe burst because of their cds with 100% crit and bladestorm/ravager and moonglaives. Having wake give us judgement would really help those times when you need to switch targets and are at 4-5 holy power and judgement is on like a 6 second cd.

[Kiki b]

Personally, I'd like to see some things change. Bringing back some old mechanics while maintaining some of the recent endeavors could be cool, I think. I'll try to explain it as best I can lol. Obviously cooldowns/damage numbers/durations and all could be tweaked. I am 100% not a class designer.

• Change Mastery to just a flat % increase of holy damage.
  
  
• Wake of Ashes baseline (pls)
  
  
• Bring back seals.
  
  
• Blade of Wrath baseline (returning as The Art of War)
  

For the mastery change, this would allow it to retain it's job of increasing the damage of Judgment and finishers, while opening the door to make it a more attractive stat overall (Also increasing damage of talents like Divine Hammer, etc). Sort of like Hand of Light, just without the split damage aspect of the initial ability followed by the mastery hit.

Seals could return as, and this is probably a super unpopular opinion, Diablo Crusader style laws. We already have a bunch of Crusader-ish abilities in our kit, but the active/passive nature of laws was is interesting and I think it can bring some cool things to Ret, like allowing for some old play styles to come back or incorporating cool legendary effects from legion into the kit. I think they'd work really well with a baseline non-damage seal, and damage seals as a row of talents. For example:

Baseline

• Seal of Light
  (Passive): Your melee attacks have a chance to heal you for 3% of your maximum health.
  (Active): For the next 15 seconds, Seal of Light also applies to all allies within 20 yards.

Talent

• Seal of the Zealot
  (Passive): Generates 1 holy power every 7.5 seconds while in combat.
  (Active): For the next 18 seconds, your Crusader Strike generates 3 holy power
  
• Seal of Valor:
  (Passive): Enemies burning from Wake of Ashes take 10% increased damage from your abilities.
  (Active): Instantly refreshes the duration of the Wake of Ashes burn effect.
  
• Seal of Virtue
  (Passive): Your critical auto attacks double the chance to proc The Art of War.
  (Active): For the next 20 seconds, Blade of Wrath deals 30% increased damage and hits up to 3 nearby targets.

Rough ideas off the top of my head, with someone smarter than I making them, I feel seals could all be rotation trans-formative, while being competitive with each other to the point where it may come down to fight/personal preference for your choice, which would be a nice change of pace compared to our current talent set up. But just as an example, these add a return of Zealotry in a way that could feel natural, a way to bring back Liadrin's Fury and Ashes to Dust to our kit, and a seal that may lean you toward a crit build with increased Blade of Wrath casts. Seal of Light also makes a return for extra survivability, with some of the party buffing utility flair us Paladins are famous for.


I'd also like Hammer of Wrath to come back, but I've kinda let my hopes die for that one.

[Vanderhuge]

Whole lot of stuff about Seals

This is an idea. They won't make Ret's mastery flat Holy damage, but if they wanted something exciting - tie the mastery into a Seal system.

Mastery - Sanctified Seals: Increases the passive effect of your Seal by X% and its active effect by Y%. The active effect's duration is also increased by Z seconds.

All seals have a 30 second cooldown, 6 second duration. For a baseline seal, you start off with something simple, like Seal of Light. Have it increase damage by 3%, with an active effect that boosts the damage bonus to 12%.

Replace the entire row for Blade of Wrath with a row of Seal talents.

Seal of the Crusader: Passive grants 5% Haste, Active grants 20% Haste
Seal of the Inquisitor: Passive grants 12.5% additional Holy damage, Active grants 50% additional Holy damage
Seal of the Zealot: Passive grants generators a 12.5% chance to grant one extra Holy Power, active increases this to 50%

Each of those changes how the rotation feels, they play differently with the 100 row of talents, and they give the spec something interesting to keep an eye on. Judgment would need to change, probably to a normal HP generator that deals splash damage. That could act as a "smart toggle" - in other words, if 2+ targets have a Judgment debuff near you, then Templar's Verdict becomes Divine Storm and Blade of Wrath becomes Divine Hammer.