Netherlight Crucible - disappointed

[Caolela]

Considering you seem to only complain about...well everything in WoW. Why exactly do you pay for it again?

I comment on the things that I think need it most, far from "everything in WoW". It's not binary. I don't play Legion because it's hot garbage.

Try harder.

[Magnagarde]

The problem isn't wether you will get a BiS trait on top of a shit trait and feel good about it. The problem is that you need to get a BiS trait on a BiS trait because those who do have it will easily outplay the rest and this creates an even greater gap and problem than we have right now.

The average Joe will be happy because "I got two traits on one of my relics guys!", but those that are in raiding rosters and dependant on their performance will have a nightmare. Class performances in terms of healing and DPS will be all over the place and the cause will be extremely hard to pinpoint. Many will surely get benched over this.

What is even worse, it happens to hit the LAST and longest-lasting raid tier in the entire expansion. I'm usually someone who is hardly ever pessimistic about literally anything they ever release(except MoP), but this was totally not needed.

[SirCowdog]

Sorry, I don't relate. Why the hell would I willingly spend money and time on something I didn't have fun doing?
If you're not having fun, if the content is not engaging to you, if you're just going through the motions as you play... Well, I can see how anything short of WoD's system of reward would feel as an offense then. But it's still your decision to keep playing, same as how gambling becomes a problem due to choices made by the individual. Others gamble/drink/game just fine for fun without fucking themselves over.

And previous systems such as "working towards an actual upgrade", had people out en masse proclaiming how they were done with their content, they had no reason to play beyond doing a set amount of shit every day/week, they played World of City-craft instead of being out in the world pursuing things. What you call engaging and fun, others called boring, predictable and lazy design.

Player feedback plays a role in the design of the game, but I'm thinking they'll be going less by vocal minorities on forums and more by in-game player behaviour moving forward. This probably means that the tiny minorities in-game, might see themselves screwed over by design decisions catered toward how the masses play the game.

Gambling is also highly regulated and monitored. It's also the sole form of entertainment(you go to gamble because you're there to gamble), whereas people don't come to WoW specifically for the RNG. It's a middle man. Often times a barrier to fun in the case of organized raiding.

So it's not always a simple case of "if you don't like RNG then don't play", because sometimes you have to deal with RNG to get to what you actually want to enjoy. A little bit of that to add variety is fine. But going to layered levels of RNG like we've seen in Legion is way too much.

[Deleted]

Not to be the contrarian, but isn't the point of an MMO to grind? To constantly be in search of that thing you will never truly obtain? I think the game's kind of hit a nice stride, in that lapsed players never feel too far behind, while dedicated players never quite hit that wall of progression. I say this as someone who's never been one of those dedicated players, so maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't this what you guys wanted? They will never be able to provide enough content to keep dedicated players busy, so they have to cheat somewhere. And for a glorified fidget spinner, I think they've gotten pretty good at it. Again though, I say this as someone who doesn't even remotely care about min-maxing, so I have difficulty understanding that perspective. Am I wrong here?

No.
Grind="I need a trillion of those tokens to finally buy those amazing gloves I want"
Grind=/="I have to run this same dull content over and over again because every time I have a ONE IN A TRILLION CHANCE that the right item with the right stats will drop and then TF enough to be viable and it's all starting to feel like a fever dream"

fuck that, it's just bad game design and we're all at fault for letting it pass and in fact get WORSE with every single iteration of the game

[Doffen]

I love Legion.

Keep at it boys and girls, this is amusement. Seeing the same people complaining about everything about the game in every thread here is hilarious.

[Noblebanned]

So the most important feature of 7.3 is now out and simply put...

I'm bummed that this went live. It's not fun, it's more simming/calculations/etc than reforging ever was (but somehow the same reasons reforging was removed don't apply here to a major feature?). I've spent much of today explaining to friends, guildies, etc., how it works because it's unnecessarily complicated and definitely not straightforward. As a foundational character feature, it hasn't been well-explained--which might explain why so many people are confused (even after reading fansites/guides) as to how it exactly works.

It's RNG that wasn't necessary and nobody wanted. Unbelievable that after all the complaints about how they have gone overboard with RNG this expansion, they add MORE layers to it.

Nobody wants to "invest" in non-throughput traits. It's even worse when they're "forced."

I'm struggling to think of a reason to defend this feature and I can't. Perhaps it is like that on purpose? Just to stretch out that /played, right.

Wahhhhh. They gave us a chance to improve shit relics, and you little bitches cry still. It's fucking unbelievable that you can all whine this much.

[Cosmic Janitor]

But one you have to leave raid to make use of! On a completely unrelated topic, why was Reforging removed from the game again?

Some retarded argument about people just using sites to calculate the best reforge etc.. completely glossing over the fact that it ment you could make abhorrent item drops somewhat usable, which was far outweighing any inconvenience.

In regards to the cruicible.. yeah that one is a bit overcomplicated. Instead of just adding another random offensive trait to already existing passive ones and vice versa, this is just more rng gambling (seriously, the 2nd tier is completly uneccessary). Well they need to keep the AP grind alive ...

[Hctaz]

Pulling the lever on the slot machine keeps people addicted. This isn't even a subtle attempt to "stretch out that /played". It's a blunt, obvious one.

As much as I obviously disagree with you on the flying debate, this one is preeeeeetty obviously indisputable. I don't understand how people complain about TFing this whole time and then they drop even more loot rng on top of the loot rng we already have on TOP OF the regular loot RNG that has been in the game since Vanilla.

- - - Updated - - -

Wahhhhh. They gave us a chance to improve shit relics, and you little bitches cry still. It's fucking unbelievable that you can all whine this much.

Because it isn't "improving shit relics", it's taking your already good relics we've been farming for the last 98 days and then randomly making them god tier or shit tier in one patch.

All this does is make your second best relic trait a viable option if it happens to roll your best in the Crucible. There's no alternative to that.

[Mister Cheese]

Are the bonuses randomly generated for each relic or does each relic have its bonuses preassigned?

Completely random once you put it in. Each relic does not have predetermined bonuses.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I feel like it definitely helped my toons. Very few relics in ToS had good traits for me. I hadn't had my bis trait on a relic since Nighthold. Now I have two on my main and haven't even checked the others yet.

Zero bis -> 2 in one day, works for me!

[Tradu]

They already said this was the best they could do to allow dual traits on artifacts. The way the system was originally set up was set up so Relic A pulls Trait 5 and every class that can use it gets Trait 5 pulled, etc. They claimed it wasn't the best and in hindsight wish they did it differently, but wasn't worth completely revamping all relics now.

Also, what exactly is complicated about it? First tier is +15 iLvLs. Second tier look at 3rd tier and find the trait you want then pick previous trait. Etc.

It's definitely not the best way of fixing relics, considering I can tell you a better way off the top of my head: relic has its base trait, NLC gives 3 options which replace the base trait if selected. Now it actually helps bad relics while not making currently good relics worse. There's no reason relics need to give 2 traits in the first place, it just increases the gap between good and bad relics.

- - - Updated - - -

Another one thinking he speaks for me and what I do in-game.
I'm not out in the world "pulling a slot machine", I'm out playing and progressing my characters, where in other expansions I'd have been sitting pretty in a city, done with my main after that week's raid and struggling to find motivation for playing alts in current content since I wouldn't be able to take them through fun, meaningful content other than doing the same HC dungeons time and time again...

If you'd rather watch paint dry, then watch paint dry, nobody's forcing you to do otherwise. I'll be here, 10 months from now, progressing characters with control of what I pursue (atm, Challenge artifacts) just fine.

That's your problem. The raids were there in previous expansions, and if anything it was easier to get alts into them because ilevels weren't absurdly inflated because of titanforging.

- - - Updated - - -

You indicate that Blizzard used to be better. What was the difference? What expansion would you point to and say they gave you the control you wanted?

In some cases, way back when, people thought they had control because they played inferior specs, which you can still do, it's just that everyone knows better now so you don't really have that "choice" for most specs. And don't get me wrong, I do understand the nature of the complaint about the current slot machine feel in Legion, but there has always been hugely impactful RNG. Remember the sword dubbed the Destroyer of Guilds because of how angry it made the unlucky people who didn't get it at the very lucky people who did get it? Or countless other examples since the very earliest days of the game.

I don't know what the solution is. I have actually been enjoying playing a 101 with the exp turned off because I have to make choices with AP ... I can't get nearly every trait and I have to make real decisions about which ones to pick. It is sort of annoying that decision tree becomes completely irrelevant because within a few minutes of hitting 110 you will have every trait, no decisions, no thinking.

Cataclysm. Boss dropped item, I got item(eventually), done. No praying for titanforging/random sockets, straightforward gearing with a realistic end.
And there are no "decisions" with artifacts, there's a correct path and that's it.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you guys seriously mad that Blizzard is implementing systems that are designed to keep you playing the game constantly?

Do you even understand what an MMO is, or why it's set up like this?

Or did you forget that at its core, they're a company who wants to make money?

If you don't like it, unsubscribe. But don't bitch about it. Not only does no one care, but your opinion doesn't mean shit compared to 10 million others.

The thing is, the game already kept people playing just fine without the absurd RNG.

- - - Updated - - -

A major and constant complaint this game saw before Legion, was "there's no reason to login, there's nothing to do, what a shit game".
In Legion, that pet peeve has transformed into "I'm never done with this shit game, I'm not having fun and they're piling on reasons for me to keep playing anyway and it's ruining lives!!"...

If only it was possible to achieve the "infinite content" thing without making it all RNG.

- - - Updated - - -

And you'd want a return to predictable, boring, short-lasting content.

Sorry, your opinion is not superior, your "better" is someone else's "worse". Get over it. The developers will be going by player behaviour at large. Might that equate to the game no longer being to your taste? Sucks, but it isn't exactly a new concept since every iteration managed to alienate people due to whatever reasons.

Making rewards a complete RNG shitfest isn't the only way of making content long-lasting.

[Aggrophobic]

It will even out relics by adding the second trait. It's a good thing.

Ehm... It makes the gap between a good and a bad relic much, much larger.
Only, you can't tell if the relic is good or bad when it drops. You have to leave the raid, go to the slot machine, bind the relic to you only to find out that this relic that might have been great fo someone else is no trash and sold to a vendor.

How anyone can defend this stupid feature is beyond me.

[Spotnick]

Geezus they finally had back something to have fun min/maxing with and people complain.

I guess it's the same people who didn't gem and enchant before and why Blizzard removed so many enchant slots and gem slots because of that?

I believe it's a fun way to continue the talent tree, however adding a second UI just for that on top of the artifact one is probably overkilling it. They should have found a way to show that on the same screen as the artifact tree.

[Tradu]

Gambling is also highly regulated and monitored. It's also the sole form of entertainment(you go to gamble because you're there to gamble), whereas people don't come to WoW specifically for the RNG. It's a middle man. Often times a barrier to fun in the case of organized raiding.

So it's not always a simple case of "if you don't like RNG then don't play", because sometimes you have to deal with RNG to get to what you actually want to enjoy. A little bit of that to add variety is fine. But going to layered levels of RNG like we've seen in Legion is way too much.

So much this. It's not that I hate everything in WoW, I just hate how RNG everything has become leading up to the part that I enjoy the most. Yesterday I got a 950 item from an 895 base ilevel WQ for handing in 40 Astral Glory. That should not happen. The reward is completely disproportionate to the content I did, and it's all due to RNG.

- - - Updated - - -

Wahhhhh. They gave us a chance to improve shit relics, and you little bitches cry still. It's fucking unbelievable that you can all whine this much.

How about taking a second and thinking about the system before making idiotic comments like that. Yes, it makes shit relics less shit than before the patch in absolute numbers. They're much worse relative to the best ones than before. What would actually improve bad relics would be having the NLC traits replace the base trait. Then it'd "only" be the (in some cases absurdly powerful) T2 traits that cause problems.

[gushDH]

I bet Ion will say in an interview somewhere "Yeah, we think we added too much RNG into the game, we are gonna fix that." And everyone will be like "praise the lord!".

They just wanted to add something to grind even more. Remember how you grinded that one dungeon +10/+15 for that relic you always wanted? Well now you will grind it 4 times more for that relic you always wanted with the crucible points you always wanted.

[Tradu]

I bet Ion will say in an interview somewhere "Yeah, we think we added too much RNG into the game, we are gonna fix that." And everyone will be like "praise the lord!".

They just wanted to add something to grind even more. Remember how you grinded that one dungeon +10/+15 for that relic you always wanted? Well now you will grind it 4 times more for that relic you always wanted with the crucible points you always wanted.

4 times as many runs? That's pretty optimistic considering it'd both need to roll the correct 2 traits and have them in the same path.

[Deleted]

How long does it take to finish the questline and unlock the NLC if you've done everything up until this reset?

[MrMatticus]

PS: I need a new game to play.

Super Mario 64 Online is out.

[Svad1287]

I really dont think more RNG-based optimization is what players wanted...
How about customization where players have the reins?
But I guess it keeps people grinding relics like there's no tomorrow. "Content"
Also funny how this seems to be Reforging in the most glorious state, except it is based on RNG and works on one item slot.

There are relics up on Argus, pretty much every day, it took me about 15 min. pr. toon to get the relics needed for my main, my war and my DK (5 min. was spent on travelling pr. toon )

[pkm]

Super Mario 64 Online is out.

Holy fuck I thought this was a troll post. This is amazing can't wait to dive into it...