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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawstruck View Post
    I want people to know how idiotic this lore is so they can stop saying "BUT MAH LORE" when talking about WoW's good points.

    Take away an army's general, let it "run rampant," and tell me if it's STRONGER or WEAKER. A mindless horde of hungry zombies would be incredibly EASY to destroy compared to an organized force guided by intelligence.
    Your point is predicated on the assumption that the army's general is trying to win. In the LK's case, he could easily direct his army to destroy everything. This is of course more potent than the uncontrolled rampant Scourge. But Arthas deliberately held back that army so much that it is weaker than an uncontrolled rampaging force.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Unless that intelligence is deliberately holding the army back so much that it is weaker than an uncontrolled rampaging force.
    So why doesn't Bolvar run them off a cliff or into a furnace or something, destroy them all, and then take off the damn helmet?

  3. #23
    Stood in the Fire LarryWithTheWeatherReport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Unless that intelligence is deliberately holding the army back so much that it is weaker than an uncontrolled rampaging force.

    Agreed, Arthas was holding the Scourge back a lot and in my opinion. I think it's for a few reasons. He don't want the war to be too one sided in his favor or it won't be fun. And two is because he wanted to test the Alliance and the Horde in order to seek out the greatest heros.
    Azeroth >> Blood Titan >> Void Titan >> Blood God G'huun >> Sargeras >> Argus the Unmaker >> Void Lord >> Locus Walker >> Alleria >> N'zoth >> Pantheon Spirits >> Azshara >> Rasktakhan >> Bwonsamdi >> Jaina >> Anduin >> Sylvanas >> Genn >> Lich King >> Yogg Saron >> Kil'jaeden >> Archimonde >> Odyn >> Zul >> Helya >> Deathwing >> Velen > Illidan >>

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawstruck View Post
    So why doesn't Bolvar run them off a cliff or into a furnace or something, destroy them all, and then take off the damn helmet?
    Bolvar was doing his best to jail the Scourge and he's not a monstrous Lich King like his predecessors. But he doesn't really know what he's doing. Arthas had Ner'zhul around to teach him how the powers worked.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    What happened to Bolvar? We haven't seen him reign in the scourge at all. What's he doing on the Throne?
    DK: It wasn't an easy transition for him. You gotta give him a little bit of time. He was kind of melted for a little while and then he was stuck in an ice cube. It's tough. That's a hard thing to go through.
    CM: The Scourge and Cult of the Damned currently operating in Plaguelands are likely autonomous. The idea with Bolvar putting that helmet on, attempting to contain the Scourge... It's really about Northrend. "I just got on a boat yesterday and those quests are still happening." Ideally, if this thing had a clean timeline, which it does not... If we were making a movie... If we were writing it as a novel, with him on that Frozen Throne, the Scourge has gone to sleep in Northrend. But obviously it doesn't play out that way in the game. You can still go back and do all those quests.

    But that is the intent of the fiction. That things aren't as bad as they were and he is not a monstrous Lich King. He's actually trying to keep everybody chill. There won't be any major crazy new Scourge attacks... for some time. But the Scourge operating in Plaguelands, it's more helpful to look at them as autonomous. Although, we haven't really dug out a lot of lore to substantiate that. "How are they autonomous?" "Who's driving these critters?" "Zombies don't have free will."
    DK: Well certainly as Arthas' power waned, he lost control of the Forsaken. So we got a new Lich King getting his feet wet.
    CM: Totally. (BlizzCon2011)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire LarryWithTheWeatherReport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pawstruck View Post
    So why doesn't Bolvar run them off a cliff or into a furnace or something, destroy them all, and then take off the damn helmet?

    Bolvar is probably a lot smarter than we think and is planning for the future. A army of undead at his command would give him unlimited power. He might be saving the massive army of undeads for the Legion if it comes down to it or the Faceless Ones. The Helm probably corrupted him a bit while he was dormant.
    Azeroth >> Blood Titan >> Void Titan >> Blood God G'huun >> Sargeras >> Argus the Unmaker >> Void Lord >> Locus Walker >> Alleria >> N'zoth >> Pantheon Spirits >> Azshara >> Rasktakhan >> Bwonsamdi >> Jaina >> Anduin >> Sylvanas >> Genn >> Lich King >> Yogg Saron >> Kil'jaeden >> Archimonde >> Odyn >> Zul >> Helya >> Deathwing >> Velen > Illidan >>

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    To add to this it would mean that the scourge wouldn't have anything controlling them essentially becoming a ravaging horde that wouldn't stop and would just keep advancing until everything was dead in its path. It's difficult to defeat an army when they are travelling as a horde that doesn't stop or show any sign of holding back.

    Yes the combined efforts of the people could stop it but the casualties would be great and there would be scourge necromancers also raising the newly slain or lich's floating around raising their own armies to kill off the living.

    Basically there needed to be someone in command to keep the scourge in check a little as well
    All of this is immensely stupid as an excuse... All one would need to do is put on the crown, make packs of scourge line up for "decomissioning" and have some Red Dragons incinerate them all... and then take off the crown.

    There doesn't need to be anyone to "keep the scourge in check" if they are all destroyed.

    If you want to still have a Lich King for the reason the OP listed (preventing others from making more and controlling them), then using the crown to make all the scourge destroy themselves would be even MORE of a good idea, because the Lich King would be able to better control new undead made by rogue necromancers if he wasn't already trying to maintain control over tens of thousands of scourge soldiers... His mind would be more focused, allowing him to more easily wrest control, then make them kill their would be master, and then go jump in a bonfire somewhere, immediately ending their threat.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-09-13 at 11:50 PM.
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  7. #27
    I guess I can buy that, but I'm still a little skeptical. The whole "I'm saving the Scourge as a weapon to use someday" is a pretty weird argument, since they're obviously so dangerous.

    I still think they could've done something better.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    If you want to still have a Lich King for the reason the OP listed (preventing others from making more and controlling them), then using the crown to make all the scourge destroy themselves would be even MORE of a good idea, because the Lich King would be able to better control new undead made by rogue necromancers if he wasn't already trying to maintain control over tens of thousands of scourge soldiers... His mind would be more focused, allowing him to more easily wrest control, then make them kill their would be master, and then go jump in a bonfire somewhere, immediately ending their threat.
    Except the LK gets more powerful the more Scourge are under his control.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  9. #29
    I always had a theory that it was just trickery.

    Terenas spent a long time trapped in there,who says that Ner'zhul didn't corrupt his mind or plant the idea that there always needed to be a lick king?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Okay so after seeing yet another person making a thread to ask why there must always be a Lich King I figured I would just make my own thread to quickly address the issue. Please spread this word around and work together to get everyone to stop asking this fucking question. Let's begin.

    This whole issue came to be during the post-fight cinematic for the Lich King encounter way back in ICC. Terenas speaks the fateful line: "Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world. There must always be a Lich King.", and thus 10 years of people asking WHY DOES THAT MEAN??? became a thing.

    So first of all, The Burning Legion brought the Plague of Undeath to Azeroth. You got the plague, you died, you turned into zombie and Ner'zhul the Lich King used his psychic power to take over your brain and make you have abomination orgies or whatever.

    Basically, it works like this (more or less), anyone with enough power and knowledge or whatever can use Void magic to turn dead people into zombie sex slaves. You raise a ghoul then you telepathically enslave it. The Lich King, thanks to the powers granted to him via the Legion, has immense control over undead. Because of the Lich King, random joe-shmoes can't make their own undead armies and control them; the Lich King would simply wrest control from them.

    So, No Lich King = Anyone can fuck around with making undead minions. Anyone fucking around with undead minions = A problem.

    In fact, after Arthas' defeat we immediately begin seeing problems with this in Cataclysm. Sylvanas begins raising her own Forsaken, Darkmaster Gandling of Scholomance fame is now raising his own army in the Andorhal questline and there's that one boss dude in the updated Scarlet Monastery that's raising undead willy-nilly like an asshole. Bolvar didn't have as perfect a grip on the Scourge as the original Lich King did, and we saw the ramifications of that via more people gaining more power over enslaving the undead.

    There were moments when the Lich King's power was compromised, as well. In Warcraft 3, the Lich King was suffering a feigning of power which resulted in Sylvanas and thousands of other undead breaking free of his grasp, who all became the Forsaken. In Wrath of the Lich King, after suffering a defeat at Light's Hope in the Death Knight starting quests, the Death Knights were able to break free from the mental grasp of Arthas.

    To summarize: The Lich King's mental control of the undead prevents people from making their own undead minions; or undead armies. It's better to have the control of the undead centralized to a single place than it is to worry about any aspiring mage creating his personal zombie army. Now please stop asking why we need a Lich King.
    Alot of what you are saying amounts to a lot of speaking directly from your ass.

    No where in cannon is there any explaination that "bolvar doesnt have good / full control over his powers as the lich king". Also, Undead were being raised by Sylvannis BEFORE the lich king was killed.

    The point is, what the fuck happened before there was even a lich king? Do you think millions and billions of undead just popped up out of nowhere and became mindless drones attacking people? No. Some entity (like *GASP* the Lich King) used necromantic powers over the undead to do their bidding. Get rid of those powers (aka kill the lich king off completely) no one controls the undead, kill the undead (as they can not reproduce) then you completely eradicate any thread of undead scourge from being a threat.

    Also, wouldn't it be a good thing to have the undead under the control of the lich king free their (undead) minds from his control and join a faction like the horde?

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Except that was Ner'zhul, not Bolvar, who can barely control the ones he started with. Less would be more, in his scenario... Ner'zhul already had experience with spirits, a great connection with them even, before he was ever the Lich King, what is why he had that experience... Bolvar does not.

    Bolvar would do better with small groups, as he is a novice at this, it would be better for him to be able to focus all his attention rather than try to spread it around until he knows what he is doing.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-09-14 at 12:26 AM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Except that was Ner'zhul, not Bolvar, who can barely control the ones he started with. Less would be more, in his scenario... Ner'zhul already had experience with spirits, a great connection with them even, before he was ever the Lich King, what is why he had that experience... Bolvar does not.
    Yes, I know that. I linked the quote above where Kosak and Metzen said that about Bolvar "getting his feet wet". Bolvar was weak, which is why undead outside Northrend were breaking free. Also all the souls that got released from Frostmourne during the fight with Arthas greatly reduced the LKs power. More undead means more power for the LK, but there is a critical point where too much power lost releases control. This happened even for Ner'zhul and Arthas.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    All of this is immensely stupid as an excuse... All one would need to do is put on the crown, make packs of scourge line up for "decomissioning" and have some Red Dragons incinerate them all... and then take off the crown.

    There doesn't need to be anyone to "keep the scourge in check" if they are all destroyed.

    If you want to still have a Lich King for the reason the OP listed (preventing others from making more and controlling them), then using the crown to make all the scourge destroy themselves would be even MORE of a good idea, because the Lich King would be able to better control new undead made by rogue necromancers if he wasn't already trying to maintain control over tens of thousands of scourge soldiers... His mind would be more focused, allowing him to more easily wrest control, then make them kill their would be master, and then go jump in a bonfire somewhere, immediately ending their threat.
    Who says it's that easy to take off the crown? If frostmourne was rending the soul of Arthas just from holding it I'm sure the helm of domination would be just as bad. I think there is a reason we have not seen Bolvar destroy the scourge. The power and corruption from wearing the helm makes the user unable to do so. They are compelled the keep the scourge going. Ner'Zhul hated the legion but he kept making scourge like they wanted. We know so little about the Helm and how it works aside from the wearer is the Lich King and controls the scourge. Who is to say that the will of the owner isn't compromised once they wear it. I honestly don't see the Bolvar we knew making new deals and wanting to raise Tyrion as a horseman. That is more Lich asking than Bolvar to me.

  14. #34
    I heard somewhere about a theory that "Terenas" in that cutscene may have been an illusion by a force that may somehow be able to manipulate the Lich King, and thus would want the link to controlling the Scourge preserved. I think an apparition of Arthas mentions something along the lines of a dark voice whispering to him even as the Lich King. But what do I know, I pretty much just started ready all of this lore stuff in the past 2 months.

    On the other hand, taking control of the Scourge yourself rather than leave them leaderless and have to kill every one of them would be easier, but why not kill them after taking control or at least keep them dormant long enough for someone else to?

  15. #35
    Stood in the Fire Kyux's Avatar
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    Firstly, if you said that another thread was on this topic and you wanted to say your 2 cents then that thread is where you do it. That's the idea of a post as opposed to a new thread.

    Secondly;

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Alot of what you are saying amounts to a lot of speaking directly from your ass.

    No where in cannon is there any explaination that "bolvar doesnt have good / full control over his powers as the lich king". Also, Undead were being raised by Sylvannis BEFORE the lich king was killed.
    Pretty much this. There is no evidence that Bolvar lacked control over the undead. There is no evidence that the LK has control only over undead he created. There is nothing to say that the LK takes control of any undead anywhere on Azeroth. The idea of there needing to be a LK is exactly what Terenas says. A massive army of rampant ghouls poses a big problem. Having someone to direct them, for some reason, makes them less dangerous. Why? Because Arthas held them back (I think because there was a tiny shard of the good Arthas in there but that's a different issue). That's why Tirion and Bolvar both volunteer, they could do the same thing and hold back the Scourge. Terenas isn't saying that anyone should be the new LK, but a good person like Tirion or Bolvar.

    In short, there is no evidence to suggest that anything other than exactly what ghost Terenas said was the simple truth.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    To add to this it would mean that the scourge wouldn't have anything controlling them essentially becoming a ravaging horde that wouldn't stop and would just keep advancing until everything was dead in its path. It's difficult to defeat an army when they are travelling as a horde that doesn't stop or show any sign of holding back.
    What the fuck? So if the Lich King just didn't do his job then the undead would win? Why the fuck does the Lich King exist if the undead can just win by being leaderless? It's like saying the Nazis were slowly conquering land, and once they lost Hitler they would just go on a rampage and conquer the whole world. Why didn't Hitler just do nothing in the first place? Makes no fucking sense.

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    If frostmourne was rending the soul of Arthas just from holding it I'm sure the helm of domination would be just as bad.
    the only reason that happened is because there was a malevolent spirit inhabiting Frostmourne, and the helm, that spirit being Ner'zhul, whom is now gone, because Arthas destroyed his spirit once he had become fully corrupted... The corrupting force of Frostmourne and the armor was entirely the spirit which inhabited it, which is no more.

    I think there is a reason we have not seen Bolvar destroy the scourge.
    There is, bad writing.


    Ner'Zhul hated the legion but he kept making scourge like they wanted
    . He did so while the entire time planning to use that force to undermine them, he knew if he openly rebelled they would simply destroy him, so he played the double agent. The armor didn't compel him to do anything, threat of total annihilation by his masters did, so he played along while planning to betray them once he had enough power, which is exactly what he did.

    That is more Lich asking than Bolvar to me.
    Bolvar is also in a constant state of agonizing, burning pain, and was tortured further by Arthas himself before we killed him... An experience like that changes a person.
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  18. #38
    Stood in the Fire Kyux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitRefresh View Post
    What the fuck? So if the Lich King just didn't do his job then the undead would win? Why the fuck does the Lich King exist if the undead can just win by being leaderless? It's like saying the Nazis were slowly conquering land, and once they lost Hitler they would just go on a rampage and conquer the whole world. Why didn't Hitler just do nothing in the first place? Makes no fucking sense.
    I think the most likely reason, which may or may not have been confirmed, is that Arthas was holding them back. Ner'zhul wanted Arthas to be his champion and to be a physical body (I assume that last part) but apparently did not contemplate some part of Arthas' goodness remaining. Ner'zhul originally intended Arthas to lead the Scourge to be more deadly than a rampant horde of undead, he would direct them to strategically important targets. But instead Arthas did the opposite. Yes, a Horde would be more potent than Arthas' Scourge, but a Scourge organised by someone actually dedicated to Azeroth's destruction would be more potent than the rampant Scourge.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerm View Post
    I think an apparition of Arthas mentions something along the lines of a dark voice whispering to him even as the Lich King.
    Arthas is almost certainly talking about the Lich King controlling the player DK who wields Blades of the Fallen Prince.
    [indent]Memory of Arthas whispers: You believe that you are in control, that your will is your own...
    Memory of Arthas whispers: Yet you do as He commands.
    Memory of Arthas whispers: You exist by His whim alone.
    Memory of Arthas whispers: You imagine yourself to be free, but you will always be His instrument...
    [/quote]

    Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne even as LK.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    Having someone to direct them, for some reason, makes them less dangerous. Why? Because Arthas held them back (I think because there was a tiny shard of the good Arthas in there but that's a different issue).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    I think the most likely reason, which may or may not have been confirmed, is that Arthas was holding them back.
    It wasn't that at all. That's what Uther guessed, admitting he didn't know (also contradicting his own words 2 seconds earlier). The real reason was that Arthas' pre-Wrath Scourge invasion was to taunt everyone to come to ICC (this is depicted in the comics). He wanted only Azeroth's strongest champions to reach him in ICC so he could kill us and res us into his army. It was for his amusement to make us fall to damnation the way he had.

    It's plainly stated during the encounter.
    The Lich King casts Fury of Frostmourne, killing all players at once.
    The Lich King yells: No questions remain unanswered. No doubts linger. You ARE Azeroth's greatest champions. You overcame every challenge I laid before you. My mightiest servants have fallen before your relentless onslaught... your unbridled fury...
    The Lich King yells: Is it truly righteousness that drives you? I wonder...

    The Lich King turns to address Tirion.
    The Lich King yells: You trained them well, Fordring. You delivered the greatest fighting force this world has ever known... right into my hands - exactly as I intended! You shall be rewarded for your unwitting sacrifice.
    Arthas centers himself in the middle of the platform, turns his back on the block of ice and begins to cast Raise Dead, Frostmourne raised into the air.
    The Lich King yells: Watch now as I raise them from the dead to become masters of the Scourge. They will shroud this world in chaos and destruction. Azeroth's fall will come at their hands -- and you will be the first to die.
    The Lich King laughs.
    The Lich King yells: I delight in the irony.

    And also the WotLK trailer:
    In the end, all that awaits you is death. Only then will you understand you have been following in my footsteps all along. So come then, you heroes. Come in all your power and glory! For in the final hour, all must serve the one true king.

    Also WoG:
    Originally Posted by Chris Metzen
    So as we were talking about the Lich King and the nature of this expansion set, imagine the Lich King has done something despicable to both the Alliance and the Horde. The powers-that-be decided, "Alright we're sending troops. Let's rally some expeditions. We're going to go take it to him. We know he's up there. He's mocking us. Let's go get him." The basic psychology is imagine that he's planned this all along. He's got the fishing pole, "reel 'em in." This is what he's wanted all along. Because relative to Arthas' experience, he was the weapon of his greatest enemy. The harder he tried to fight the good fight and save his people, the quicker he walked right into the bad guy's plan and the quicker he became, ultimately, the weapon of the bad guy. It was Arthas that went home and killed his dad and Scourged out his kingdom. He was the hammer that dropped. It wasn't ultimately the Scourge—ultimately, it wasn't the armies of the dead that made it happen, it was the big hero that made it happen. So in the same way... So to kinda wrap it up, the idea is that Arthas may in fact have precipitated this whole thing. Because he thinks that using you guys against your own cities is actually pretty funny. He can probably mobilize an army of the dead anytime he wants. All he's gotta do is unleash the Plague on Orgrimmar, Teldrassil. You can argue that he can do that whenever. But I think that he gets a big, big kick out of you guys doing what he did. So, that sounds really compelling and is largely the psychology we're trying to base a lot of our questlines on. (BlizzCon2007)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    Ner'zhul wanted Arthas to be his champion and to be a physical body (I assume that last part) but apparently did not contemplate some part of Arthas' goodness remaining. Ner'zhul originally intended Arthas to lead the Scourge to be more deadly than a rampant horde of undead, he would direct them to strategically important targets. But instead Arthas did the opposite.
    At that point, Ner'zhul was destroyed. Arthas had consumed him and taken sole control of the Scourge.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2017-09-14 at 04:41 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

    RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pawstruck View Post
    I want people to know how idiotic this lore is so they can stop saying "BUT MAH LORE" when talking about WoW's good points.

    Take away an army's general, let it "run rampant," and tell me if it's STRONGER or WEAKER. A mindless horde of hungry zombies would be incredibly EASY to destroy compared to an organized force guided by intelligence.
    that is true, if we compare scourge full might vs run rampant one, but we never faced scourge full might, in fact we know (official blue answer as shown) that scourge full might would wipe out life from azeroth easily, we never faced it however
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

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