KJ Nerfs

[Marrilaife]

I don't think this needed to be done for heroic and down.

Who cares about heroic being "hard" 3 months in? Any casual guild who couldn't kill him can kill him now and finally boast their "curve", pugs will have easier time, and farmers would just get faster clears which is what they want as well (efficiency). So who exactly is harmed by making normal / hc boss easier after the mid-tier milestone (which I count patch 7.3 as). World bosses on Argus drop better loot and they're the epitome of loot pinata. So let casuals & pugs have their hc KJ, what's the harm at this point?

It's not even a drastic nerf, drastic nerf would be stuff like nerfing non-soaked armageddon dot (allowing sloppier play) or making the soaked dot non stackable like in lfr (so you can have a handful of people carry the rest through the mechanic), you still have to soak you just have to run less to the corners which actually helps in case you don't have many mobility classes in the raid. So generally a change in good direction, you still have to do the mechanics but players with less mobility toolkit or slower reaction times (f&f casual guilds) can execute it will less chances of rng wipe.

Cutting small amount of hp will also help casual f&f guilds to rather keep their weaker players in than having to bench them because they can't carry them anymore, and this is something fairly important in casual guilds, to be all inclusive.

[Gasparde]

The entire raid just picked up 15 item levels to their weapons, what more could you really need?

A boss that isn't stupid.
4 months in there's still only like 50 guilds who killed KJ. And of those 50 guilds most likely more than half haven't even bothered re-killing him.

This is not about making the boss ez pz freeloot or pleasing entitled people. We haven't had a situation where only like 1000 people in the world killed the last boss of a tier.... in years. They haven't walked that road in ages, they're not suddenly starting to do so, ToS was a fuckup in terms of balancing and every nerf to said fuckup is a welcome thing.

[Khallid]

you dont want any downtime? okay, our guild isnt partilarly good, we were like rank 1000 on guldan, but it is really taxing for some people to go progress the whole tier, have 2-3 weeks of tough rekills of the last boss and immediately jump into another 5 months of progress, I had a long pause since the end of MoP till legion, I started raiding, we were 2 day raiding guild in EN/ToV and it took us till december till we actually killed xavius, the immediately NH started, we jumped right into it, but didnt kill guldan till 3 weeks before patch, them we rotated people for cutting edge, which meant more wipes next weeks and immediately started with tos, which is, frankly, boring and mostly monotone in terms of mechanics and the only fight i like so far are sisters and i wasnt even allowed on it with main, since we had ton of melee, we are at sasszine atm (6%, but we fail mechanics horribly, so its not really about new ilevs on weps) and there is a good chance we wont be getting cutting edge this tier, that means more wiping for the next two months.

I and I imagine alot of other raiders just want a break for a while so we are fresh for the next tier, since It has been a year of constant progress for the worse or more casual mythic guilds, but unless you have understanding GM, you will either get a boot or loose your raiding spot, if you take a break now in a middle of the progress. Our GM actually already suggested to officers to downscale our raiding time to two evenings after sasszine kill till the end of tier because we are losing people to burnout quickly, 6 in the last two weeks

Huh. I guess that's the difference between hardcore and non-hardcore players (I'm the latter).

I find progress to be fun. I raid because I like it. But farm is boring compared to progress, so I'm perfectly fine with progress nonstop. I raid two nights a week of 3 hours. My guild is not cutting edge though. We only killed up to Mythic Tichondrius before ToS. I don't think we'll get to kill Avatar before Antorus comes up.

I guess from my point of view, I never get tired from playing the game. Burnout is not a thing for non-hardcores as far as I'm concerned. So doing farm for longer than progress doesn't sit well in my mind.

[Hahyestwo]

Huh. I guess that's the difference between hardcore and non-hardcore players (I'm the latter).

I find progress to be fun. I raid because I like it. But farm is boring compared to progress, so I'm perfectly fine with progress nonstop. I raid two nights a week of 3 hours. My guild is not cutting edge though. We only killed up to Mythic Tichondrius before ToS. I don't think we'll get to kill Avatar before Antorus comes up.

I guess from my point of view, I never get tired from playing the game. Burnout is not a thing for non-hardcores as far as I'm concerned. So doing farm for longer than progress doesn't sit well in my mind.

I really think you'd change your tune if you had to do Avatar progress before the crucible and 2nd round nerfs. And this may come out as rude, but if you only got up to Tich before ToS, you didn't do any actual NH progress (I'm guessing you killed nerfed Spellblade, for example, and didn't even see Eli/Gul'dan). NH was fine, though (imho ofc), but things like Avatar and KJ are just horrible and make progress un-fun. Without experiencing a 400+ wipe situation, I don't think it's really possible to comprehend how draining it is.

Just out of curiosity, did you raid last xPac, and if so, when did your guild kill Mythic Gorefiend and/or Archi?

Edit: And it has nothing to do with hardcore v casual, it has to do with how much time is spent doing the same repetitive stuff and the enusing rewards.

[Nnyco]

the armageddon change is nice, those spawning in the very corner were always annoyin

[Marrilaife]

. NH was fine, though (imho ofc), but things like Avatar and KJ are just horrible and make progress un-fun. Without experiencing a 400+ wipe situation, I don't think it's really possible to comprehend how draining it is.

Yep, my guild will probably not even attempt mythic KJ unless it's nerfed further because we can't really afford to extend the lockout for 1-2 months and wipe on him because it means you need to lock-in your progress team and:

1) not recruit because you have nowhere to test your recruits (only content you're doing is extended KJ with predefined team)

2) risk losing your bench because these people aren't just "rotated in and out" they're hard benched for 1-2 months with no raiding in sight so might get bored and quit

3) be forced to cancel the raid every time even 1 person from the "progress team" is out due to real life circumstances, as you can't just slot in a rookie and expect them to step up in the shoes of someone with 300+ pulls in experience, the "rookie" would have to relearn the fight wasting time of everyone else who was already there on all the earlier pulls creating tensions and foul atmosphere.

So yeah, it has a potential to cripple or even break the guild, because a guild that can't recruit, can't rotate players and has to count on the exact same 20 people for 2 months straight is at big risk, even if the people kinda have the skills (assuming typical learning curve), not everyone has the mental stamina to go through it.

If Blizzard wanted to make a boss for "only the hardcorest of the hardcorest" they should have made an extra optional mythic boss like Sinestra or Algalon.

Funnily, every time I see someone who claims they ran out of raiding content it's either a person who never does mythic or does only the early bosses, therefore the existence of super duper hard mythic endboss is completely out of their field of interest anyway.

[Jaylock]

Is it really though?
Statistics quite clearly shows it is far from it.

One of the hardest ever, actually.

- - - Updated - - -



How though? How many have actually managed to kill the boss?
Now, compare that to previous bosses.

It is a loot pinata. My guild one shots it every week.

[Twdft]

I guess from my point of view, I never get tired from playing the game. Burnout is not a thing for non-hardcores as far as I'm concerned. So doing farm for longer than progress doesn't sit well in my mind.

I'm not hardcore, heroic KilJaeden is dead for a bit so we are basically done now. I too like the game and wouldn't really burn out from our 2x2,5h raiding a week but I also like a bit of downtime between raid tiers to catch up on other games. We do the done raid a couple more times and then have a little break, which always has the risk of some players not coming back after it for the new raid. So far Legion has excellent content speed for us. We are probably too fast through ToS though, break to the next raid might be a bit long. But as I said I have no problem with that.

[Hahyestwo]

If Blizzard wanted to make a boss for "only the hardcorest of the hardcorest" they should have made an extra optional mythic boss like Sinestra or Algalon.

Out of the many ideas that have been floated around to address this, my preferred would be to put the WF race (or just Mythic in general) on a tournament realm with template characters. The Mythic raid can give cosmetic rewards that you can use on your normal-realm characters. Then, if they made Normal slightly harder and made heroic tougher to where it reaches 1/3 of the gap between current mythic and heroic, I think it'd be a good balance.

[Crowfeather]

It is a loot pinata. My guild one shots it every week.

Look everyone! We got a badass here!

[Aggrophobic]

It is a loot pinata. My guild one shots it every week.

I'm sure you do.
You are a god among men though, Jay. Can't really compare yourself with us mortals, can you?

[Alvito]

A boss that isn't stupid.
4 months in there's still only like 50 guilds who killed KJ. And of those 50 guilds most likely more than half haven't even bothered re-killing him.

This is not about making the boss ez pz freeloot or pleasing entitled people. We haven't had a situation where only like 1000 people in the world killed the last boss of a tier.... in years. They haven't walked that road in ages, they're not suddenly starting to do so, ToS was a fuckup in terms of balancing and every nerf to said fuckup is a welcome thing.

So then you just alter it in mythic as I have said a few times. Prior to the changes 48 guilds had taken him down, now it is at 53 and counting. I agree that the mythic tuning or fight set ups are over all pretty awful in ToS, which is too bad because they weren't great in NH.

[Deleted]

The goal, like always is to make the end boss a loot pinata before the next tier releases.

Mythic final boss extreme
-> World first followed by kills from the next top 10 guilds
-> Nerf to increase the kill count from single/double digits to triple digits.

This is necessary and healthy for the game as not every mythic guild can wipe 500-800 times on the final boss and not break up.

[Alvito]

It is a loot pinata. My guild one shots it every week.

Oh the bullshit is strong with you. 27 wipes just a few weeks ago https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done 4 2 weeks ago.

9 the next week, without a kill on top of it all. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...iew=analytical
Does it hurt to tell the truth?

[Deleted]

It is a loot pinata. My guild one shots it every week.

You havent even cleared heroic TOV you nonfactor.

[Otrew]

The nerfs are not so big, the damage , healing survivality for all the 7.3 is the big nerf afte 6 weeks wiping in kj (a lot people leaving, ans gearing new people) yesterday we kill him finally in the second try with 3 people of 17 being there for first time in heroic.

[Tradu]

Uh, you realize raids are dropping every 22 weeks right? That's roughly 5.5 months. You want to do more farm than progress?

Yes, because having some time to chill in between progress raiding is quite nice. At the start of the expansion I was progressing mythic from the week EN opened until we killed Gul'dan with like 2 weeks total of pure farm, which was super exhausting. It's not that I don't like progressing, it's just that doing that nonstop for months on end is draining, so having time to "recharge" in between is very valuable(and a big part of why I switched to a better guild, to end progress faster and get a bit of a break in between tiers)

[Scathbais]

the armageddon change is nice, those spawning in the very corner were always annoyin

Especially when they spawn right under the orange raid marker!

[Khallid]

I really think you'd change your tune if you had to do Avatar progress before the crucible and 2nd round nerfs. And this may come out as rude, but if you only got up to Tich before ToS, you didn't do any actual NH progress (I'm guessing you killed nerfed Spellblade, for example, and didn't even see Eli/Gul'dan). NH was fine, though (imho ofc), but things like Avatar and KJ are just horrible and make progress un-fun. Without experiencing a 400+ wipe situation, I don't think it's really possible to comprehend how draining it is.

Just out of curiosity, did you raid last xPac, and if so, when did your guild kill Mythic Gorefiend and/or Archi?

Edit: And it has nothing to do with hardcore v casual, it has to do with how much time is spent doing the same repetitive stuff and the enusing rewards.

Yeah you're right, I haven't had that situation in a long time and practically forgot about it. 400+ wipes is frustrating and repetitively boring. I did spend a few weeks progressing on Mythic Gorefiend when it was current and stopped playing during that. I think I wiped on gorefiend about 600 times, but those were very quick wipes because of the specifics of that fight, and probably not as bad as avatar wipes. I quit that guild mostly because raiding 5 nights a week was interfering with my irl schedule, so that's why I make such a harsh difference between hardcore and non-hardcores. I think I have more fun now than I did back when I was doing more progress with a stronger guild.

I don't think you're necessarily rude, but defining the word "progress" is just semantics. Progress is fighting to kill a boss you haven't killed yet, regardless of the difficulty. So the proper way to say it is that we failed to finish our mythic progress when it was relevant content, and that's just a fact.

[Hahyestwo]

Yeah you're right, I haven't had that situation in a long time and practically forgot about it. 400+ wipes is frustrating and repetitively boring. I did spend a few weeks progressing on Mythic Gorefiend when it was current and stopped playing during that. I think I wiped on gorefiend about 600 times, but those were very quick wipes because of the specifics of that fight, and probably not as bad as avatar wipes. I quit that guild mostly because raiding 5 nights a week was interfering with my irl schedule, so that's why I make such a harsh difference between hardcore and non-hardcores. I think I have more fun now than I did back when I was doing more progress with a stronger guild.

I don't think you're necessarily rude, but defining the word "progress" is just semantics. Progress is fighting to kill a boss you haven't killed yet, regardless of the difficulty. So the proper way to say it is that we failed to finish our mythic progress when it was relevant content, and that's just a fact.

Glad you were able to see my point! I did come off too condescending when I talked about "real progress", and I'm glad you corrected me. Progress is always progress, it's just that at the rate you and your guild are currently going, you're most likely not to encounter the massive roadblocks that were faced by raids who face-to-walled before progressive gear upgrades as well as encounter nerfs. Therefore, each raid may be fun for you guys, but I doubt that sentiment would be shared by someone who had to do Avatar in mid-August.

Reason I asked about Gorefiend/Archi is that HFC was the most recent raid that I did the whole 4night/ hundreds of wipes thing. And evidently, you remember the Gorefiend pain as well (though I did get to rend things and take credit for carrying us to victory when we did kill it, so it wasn't the worst!). Pre-nerf Avatar was pretty much Gorefiend on HGH (wipe-count wise, not saying the fights are similar). Not fun.