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  1. #1

    Fire T21 build speculation

    With the new T21 set bonus being heavily focused on Combustion will the fire build shift to using the ignition gloves, kindling and relics that increase combustion time? or will the build remain similar to what it is now you think?

  2. #2
    I'm terrible at theroycrafting, but I think things are pretty much going to stay the way they are. I'm not sure if you should start hard-casting Pyros during combustion when the bracers proc or if the stacked damage increase from the 4-pc will be worth the loss of extra pyros from instants or scorches (that will need to be simmed to hell and back, and there may even be a haste breakpoint).

    The problem with Kindling and Gloves is that it throws off the synergy with other abilities and trinkets. If you have no on-use trinkets then Kindling will be a DPS increase. If you do then Kindling is a DPS loss, and its better to just go with Meteor, and using a bit of skill to make it crash when PI is max and all trinks are blown. The 2pc and gloves will only drop the CD by 11 sec. Not really enough to do much, unless you're getting enough Crits to have kindling keep Combustion up nearly constantly then its unlikely to be worth it (sims may prove me wrong ofc.)

    If they added crits from scorch to kindling then it may be worth taking for the execute burst if you have the belt, but right now it just doesn't look like it to me.
    Last edited by Gamer8585; 2017-09-13 at 03:39 PM.

  3. #3
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    Depending on how fast Combustion comes up the gloves might be a less attractive option. Ideally you want to have at least 2 charges of PF going in to Combustion for maximum benefit, with the 3rd charge coming off CD mid-rotation during Combustion.

    Probably going to end up stacking haste> mastery/verse > crit with T20 2PC (same as it is right now). Getting 16-19s Combusts (w/ relics + NLC) should be juicy, and having Combustion come off CD every 1:00-1:15 devalues the gloves a little bit (since you can't reasonably use PF to reduce CD time and still store enough charges to get optimal benefit out of your combustion).

    I'll be curious to see how things pan out. Looking forward to seeing if/when Ezekielyo posts a breakdown on Altered-Time

  4. #4
    I really hope the simmed best way to play Fire in Tier 21 is with 4 piece tier 21 + gloves / wrist legendaries + kindling talent.

    I find blowing my load during combustion windows to be the funnest way to play the fire spec, so i'm hoping its going to be the best way.

  5. #5
    currently bracers/gloves + kindling sims highest. also note "reduce fireball cast time" is bis relic trait+nlc traits

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by daydayhyphy View Post
    currently bracers/gloves + kindling sims highest. also note "reduce fireball cast time" is bis relic trait+nlc traits
    I didnt think the sims were updated yet with tier 21? Cud u link what u using to sim plz

    I wonder if the tier 21 bonus will go live (aka when the raid is released) in its current form. I really hope so, it would suck if it was nerfed to be meh - and then we all just keep playing fire exactly the way we do now, when our set bonuses (both of em) encourage some sweet a combustion focused playstyle. If they wanna make both bonuses combustion related, pls let the bonus stay strong enough to rock.

  7. #7
    Im not a theorycrafter either. But i think with losing the nighthold 2 set crit will become a bit more valuable and if we want crit than the belt might be less good than the ring or gloves. Unless we want the same playstyle as frost were you cast 5-10 frostbolt and than jeej a proc. So yea im wondering what the new tier will bring us and how it will affect the current playstyle

    - - - Updated - - -

    I was also thinking with 2set and 4set tier 21 we have a combustion time of 16 seconds and with 3 relics with a main/off trait of pre ignite if you lucky we gona have a 19second uptime of combustion. and than using kindling and gloves that woult than be every minute. That woult be alot of crit chance and crit dammage uptime. Also if we dont have PF +2 ready its still insane dammage increase i think

    Best relics than in antaros woult be pre ignite and pyroblast clasmania so out of my head with the 2e trait being one of the 2

    But heey thats just my thoughts
    Last edited by Sawbossnl; 2017-09-14 at 12:27 PM.

  8. #8
    Haste and Crit are probably the 2 stats we would want for single target with the T21 in it's current form. That said it is likely to get changed or nerfed, but we've seen OP sets go live before, so it remains to be seen.

  9. #9
    Just a lowly alt fire mage here wondering why haste is valued so highly?

  10. #10
    1 no mage is lowly
    And 2 thats probably cuase of more haste meens faster cast time meens more crits meens fast combustion of cooldown

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Haste and Crit are probably the 2 stats we would want for single target with the T21 in it's current form. That said it is likely to get changed or nerfed, but we've seen OP sets go live before, so it remains to be seen.
    Although crit seems like something that's nice, it's actually the opposite. You're more than likely going to want stats that go all in with your 4set/combustion. Crit being the worst when combustion is active. Vers will be extremely nice ST with 4 set haste/mastery falling close 2nd/3rd. Mastery ofc still being king of cleave. The state of fire mage is currently very sad and it just gets worse. My personal opinion.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylemma View Post
    Although crit seems like something that's nice, it's actually the opposite. You're more than likely going to want stats that go all in with your 4set/combustion. Crit being the worst when combustion is active. Vers will be extremely nice ST with 4 set haste/mastery falling close 2nd/3rd. Mastery ofc still being king of cleave. The state of fire mage is currently very sad and it just gets worse. My personal opinion.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

    Note fire also has half the parses of frost, now go from boss to boss and see that the difference is not just overall, but rather that fire either keeps up(very close behind) or beats frost and that frost has no stand out encounters(while fire does, ie goroth w/ slight lead for frost, DI with huge lead for fire). Now look at fire vs frost t21. With all that, I have a question.

    I wonder why you think fire mage is "very sad?"

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

    Note fire also has half the parses of frost, now go from boss to boss and see that the difference is not just overall, but rather that fire either keeps up(very close behind) or beats frost and that frost has no stand out encounters(while fire does, ie goroth w/ slight lead for frost, DI with huge lead for fire). Now look at fire vs frost t21. With all that, I have a question.

    I wonder why you think fire mage is "very sad?"
    You're confusing sad with bad. I never said fire was bad. It's average in ToS because of the cleave and that's it and a lot of it is just cheesy cleave like Mistress and Avatar (most people can't cleave on Maiden like fire can) I said it's sad because the spec is designed for crit yet the stat is pretty meh to bad in almost all situations.
    Last edited by Dylemma; 2017-09-18 at 02:11 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylemma View Post
    You're confusing sad with bad. I never said fire was bad. It's average in ToS because of the cleave and that's it and a lot of it is just cheesy cleave like Mistress and Avatar (most people can't cleave on Maiden like fire can) I said it's sad because the spec is designed for crit yet the stat is pretty meh to bad in almost all situations.
    Ah, gotcha. Yes, it would be nice if crit was our go to but it's a little muddy depending on lots of different factors.

  15. #15
    The 4 piece bonus was nerfed to +12% crit damage in PTR build today.


    Going by how strong people said it was, a nerf isnt really surprising. But how strong is the bonus now at 12%?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    The 4 piece bonus was nerfed to +12% crit damage in PTR build today.


    Going by how strong people said it was, a nerf isnt really surprising. But how strong is the bonus now at 12%?
    Think 8-10% was the number that is floating around.. Which without buffs to baseline, probably isn't enough to make Fire good enough on ST. Still better than T20 though.

  17. #17
    Is the 12% bonus enough to make gloves /bracer + 4 piece + kindling the best playstyle for a tier 21 fire mage?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Think 8-10% was the number that is floating around.. Which without buffs to baseline, probably isn't enough to make Fire good enough on ST. Still better than T20 though.
    i think you underestimate how much 12% increased damage is during combust lol. Paired with some particular legendaries and/or traits. This can get rather nutty. It will be a very specific gear chase, but i would be a lot that fire will be very viable and competitive once geared properly. Just... good luck getting there. Assuming gear will be TF to 985, following the same pattern, a very high end arcano and aman'thul trinket... dear god. This will make fire even more fast paced as well. And a huge increase in weight for crit. No amount of crit would be too much crit in this set up.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by noladrew View Post
    i think you underestimate how much 12% increased damage is during combust lol. Paired with some particular legendaries and/or traits. This can get rather nutty. It will be a very specific gear chase, but i would be a lot that fire will be very viable and competitive once geared properly. Just... good luck getting there. Assuming gear will be TF to 985, following the same pattern, a very high end arcano and aman'thul trinket... dear god. This will make fire even more fast paced as well. And a huge increase in weight for crit. No amount of crit would be too much crit in this set up.

    You overestimated the set heavily. Its Critical Damage not overall Damage.

    Assuming you do 50% of your total Damage during the 14 second window of combustion (you do way less but I will say 50% to show how bad the set is) that means the set increased your overall DPS by 3%. Usually sets add 7-9% of DPS.


    TLDR the set is awful now.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by xfa View Post
    You overestimated the set heavily. Its Critical Damage not overall Damage.

    Assuming you do 50% of your total Damage during the 14 second window of combustion (you do way less but I will say 50% to show how bad the set is) that means the set increased your overall DPS by 3%. Usually sets add 7-9% of DPS.


    TLDR the set is awful now.
    Are you accounting for the fact that you'll be using combustion ~1.5-2 times as often (if kindling / glove setup etc etc)and it will last x seconds longer (+2 from 2 pce + up to another +3 if stacking preignited).

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