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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    what is considered to be the correct number of guilds to have achieved cutting edge at this point?
    Great question, but hard to say. Blizzard has an internal ballpark estimate of sorts I believe, but we won't be privy to that. No set exact number but every so often they make judgement calls if there's a particular wall too early, and towards the final month or two of a tier they do help guilds along more on the final bosses. Those are the two primary factors IMO

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    what is considered to be the correct number of guilds to have achieved cutting edge at this point?
    That this point in Nighthold there were about 370-400. Personally I thought that number was a tad bit too low but this was during the time where mythic guilds were getting slaughtered and they just killed off AP basically. I think 500 would have been fine by Nighthold standards which would have been about .05% of the population. Using the same standard would take it 220 kills (or 4x the current amount) which ironically would put it near the current Avatar count (232). I would like to see Avatar break past 1% in the next few weeks due to raw power creep but that's still a fight where power creep helps but doesn't fix your problems like you saw in Nighthold.
    Last edited by akris15; 2017-09-14 at 12:40 AM.

  3. #23
    Is this not to be expected of mythic mode? So the 'hardcore' raiders can feel special and such, while us peasents faff about with heroic.
    Grawr!

  4. #24
    and roughly how many players have enjoyed LFR ?

  5. #25
    My guild is at avatar. Raid is fine.. its still months until argus raid so we still have something to do.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Is this not to be expected of mythic mode? So the 'hardcore' raiders can feel special and such, while us peasents faff about with heroic.
    Even the top guilds didn't like the design of this tier, with both Method and Exorsus being rather clear about it. KJ needed numerous nerfs before the world first kill, received more of them later and yet is still far harder than Gul'dan was for its' time. Some guilds who killed him weren't even going for a rekill, because it was not worth it at all.

    Your thinly veiled "you elitist assholes asked for it" is missing its' mark. The tuning is a disaster even when compared to Nighthold - and that place had its' own set of issues. There's way too high difficulty spike after Host, there's no gear farming to make bosses easier, there's no good rewards for killing boss after hundreds of wipes. It's been the case in entire Legion and it reached it's peak in ToS.

    But sure, go with your strawman about how those evil hardcores keep opressing you "poor peasants". The reality is more like the opposite. Mythic raiding has less carrot and more stick than ever. No one asked for it, other than trolls pretending to be mythic raiders, while actually making "clever and ironic" posts like yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    My guild is at avatar. Raid is fine.. its still months until argus raid so we still have something to do.
    The raid has one of the lowerst completion rates for the time it is out. I don't think even LK 25HC, with limited attempts and built in nerf mechanism, was that bad. Unless the Crucible nerfs that place to the ground, it is not "fine". And it already barely matters on something like Maiden, while messing with shark timers on Mistress. The place needs more targeted nerfs and changes, quite a few things are harder to brute force than in Nighthold.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2017-09-14 at 01:06 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Is this not to be expected of mythic mode? So the 'hardcore' raiders can feel special and such, while us peasents faff about with heroic.
    no because mythic is VERY spec restrictive some specs are so much worse than others you could easily make the fight 50% harder by bringing a bad setup, which i don't believe blizzard advertised with the release of ToS? that what specs will be competely awful and what will be overpowered, so yeh blizzard kinda completely failed with mythic mode this tier, bring the spec not the player has ment ok people will re-roll or stop raiding mythic, pretty shitty overall.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Even the top guilds didn't like the design of this tier, with both Method and Exorsus being rather clear about it. KJ needed numerous nerfs before the world first kill, received more of them later and yet is still far harder than Gul'dan was for its' time. Some guilds who killed him weren't even going for a rekill, because it was not worth it at all.

    Your thinly veiled "you elitist assholes asked for it" is missing its' mark. The tuning is a disaster even when compared to Nighthold - and that place had its' own set of issues. There's way too high difficulty spike after Host, there's no gear farming to make bosses easier, there's no good rewards for killing boss after hundreds of wipes. It's been the case in entire Legion and it reached it's peak in ToS.

    But sure, go with your strawman about how those evil hardcores keep opressing you "poor peasants". The reality is more like the opposite. Mythic raiding has less carrot and more stick than ever. No one asked for it, other than trolls pretending to be mythic raiders, while actually making "clever and ironic" posts like yours.
    The raid has one of the lowerst completion rates for the time it is out. I don't think even LK 25HC, with limited attempts and built in nerf mechanism, was that bad. Unless the Crucible nerfs that place to the ground, it is not "fine". And it already barely matters on something like Maiden, while messing with shark timers on Mistress. The place needs more targeted nerfs and changes, quite a few things are harder to brute force than in Nighthold.
    I mean those guilds that still progress mistress got an ilvl that's about 10-15 higher than the first guilds that killed that boss. Players are just worse. I dont think it's the raid.

  9. #29
    It's almost like ToS is a trash raid and people are already tired of it

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    I mean those guilds that still progress mistress got an ilvl that's about 10-15 higher than the first guilds that killed that boss. Players are just worse. I dont think it's the raid.
    That was the case in previous expansions, but Titanforging has destroyed that concept. Yes, guilds have superior gear later on. However, multiple split heroic runs give top guilds weeks worth of mythic gear before lesser ones even enter the place. Combine this with the ability to stack the hell out of whatever class is the strongest and the difference between the two is much lower than it used to be.

  11. #31
    What's the point of mythic though? I've already cleared the instance on normal and heroic, I can get the same gear from there, and don't have to confom to a 20 man group size.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    what is considered to be the correct number of guilds to have achieved cutting edge at this point?
    Yeah, agree that this is a good question. For all we know they may think this is fine. It does seem low though. But if they really want to do their "best of the best" thing, perhaps.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazuchika View Post
    It's almost like ToS is a trash raid and people are already tired of it
    More like the player base is trash and the raid is too hard.

    Perspective.

  14. #34
    It's funny that this thread has been made right as M KJ kills have begun to surge a bit. 13 guilds have killed the boss since reset yesterday. Wouldn't surprise me if we see close to 100 guilds that have cleared Tomb by the end of this reset. But yes, prior to this reset the number of guilds who killed KJ was extremely low, but I have also heard that some guilds didn't even bother to try to kill him after they downed Avatar. Maybe the crucible/the additional nerfs changed some of their minds.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    My guild is at avatar. Raid is fine.. its still months until argus raid so we still have something to do.
    You have around 2 months until Throne.


    ---

    The crucible and nerfs should make the boss considerately easier, however KJ isn't really a very dps intensive boss, the problem is more the coordination requirement for this boss, a lot of guilds have good dps, but when it comes to coordination and execution of mechanics, they just can't compete on any level, and I assume that's the thing most guilds right now have issues with (or the fact that they might have an orthodox group comp, which makes the fight a bit more chaotic).

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    It's funny that this thread has been made right as M KJ kills have begun to surge a bit. 13 guilds have killed the boss since reset yesterday. Wouldn't surprise me if we see close to 100 guilds that have cleared Tomb by the end of this reset. But yes, prior to this reset the number of guilds who killed KJ was extremely low, but I have also heard that some guilds didn't even bother to try to kill him after they downed Avatar. Maybe the crucible/the additional nerfs changed some of their minds.
    I am interested to see as well. We were laughing that someone actually brought a feral to a KJ kill so everything is fine now. With the changes to how the Armageddons spawn and even the health nerfs I am curious the kill count the next two weeks. Still the /popcorn of people dying to the first bullet hell will always be interesting

  17. #37
    It became really obvious in nighthold that they were tuning the raid in direct response to how quickly guilds were progressing through it; the mistress nerfs no doubt helped a lot of guilds get past that fight and I expect a lot more avatar/kj kills as guilds take advantage of the last couple weeks' nerfs.

    In three more weeks or a month we'll probably see more 'tuning' changes to the same three bosses if they continue to be big walls.

  18. #38
    The "issue" with KJ was that anyone screwing up any single mechanic was a raid wipe. There was no dying to attrition, there was very little you could make up for on the fly to recover a single mistake. Other fights in the tier had the same issue though not nearly to the extent that KJ did.

    Between the nerfs and the crucible its going to be a very different fight. 14 guilds have killed it in two days since the nerfs, I think that speaks for itself.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    That was the case in previous expansions, but Titanforging has destroyed that concept. Yes, guilds have superior gear later on. However, multiple split heroic runs give top guilds weeks worth of mythic gear before lesser ones even enter the place. Combine this with the ability to stack the hell out of whatever class is the strongest and the difference between the two is much lower than it used to be.
    I kinda think you hit the nail on the head here. Method was 927 avg ilvl when they killed Mistress, my guild is which is working on it right now is 933 avg ilvl, and that's with the big 15 weapon ilvl increase for weapons that just happened.(which was about 2ish avg ilvls for most people). Also we're kinda at the point of just taking whatever class logs on at the time, If we had say 2-3 sub rogues doing their crazy boss damage funneling. Those sub 10% wipes could have been a kill.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    More like the player base is trash and the raid is too hard.

    Perspective.
    I mean the best guilds in the world complained about it... so...

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