Only 60 guilds have cleared Mythic Tomb

[re1gn1te]

M: Goroth 5352
M: Demonic Inquisition 4091
M: Harjatan 4241
M: Sisters of the Moon 2775
M: Mistress Sassz'ine 989
M: The Desolate Host 2181
M: Maiden of Vigilance 601
M: Fallen Avatar 232
M: Kil'jaeden 60

The jump to Sisters is a problem.
Mistress is damn near catastrophic, cutting off 2/3 of raiders who got that far.

989/2181 = 45.346%
2/3 = 66.667%

Your numbers don't add up.

[Deleted]

Imo mythic raids should be hard. Thats why they are called mythic. But its the TF system that made this tuning be so high. Blizz should have made it so that items that you get from other sources than mythic raids and quite high pvp, could only tf up to first loot from mythic raid. in this case it would be 930 in ToS. That way people might, just might join more to mythic raiding if they want higher gear. Now you can get better loot from hc than mythic and clear time for those are like night and day.

[Meiffert]

Is this an alltime low completion rate for a hardmode raid?
Only 60 guilds "fully" seeing content. Seems like quite the problem. Blizz needs to rethink tuning the game around Method/Exorsus.

To some extent you are right. As players become better, the raids are tuned more and more tightly.
But why make the cut-off for completion today? There are still months left before the next raid instance. Raid has just been nerfed (indirectly through Crubicle, just like Nighthold was nerfed through 7.2 "new" traits, just like HFC and BRF were nerfed through 10 item level valor points increase). It is designed to be hard from start so that hardcore players get a challenge and then nerfed so that more guilds can continue progressing when they started hitting a wall.
There will more kills in the weeks to come (15 guilds have killed in the last 2 days already).

Tuning has been garbage this tier indeed. All bosses need huge across the board nerfs, especially last two.
Personally they should not ever tune bosses with top 10 guilds in mind. Tuning should be done for top 500-1000 mythic guilds.

All bosses are getting huge across the board nerfs just now. Just like they did after a few months in every tier in the last 5 years.

But what I don't get is: do you want all bosses to have the same difficulty? Wouldn't that be a bit stale? Either everything is too easy, or everything is unkillable.
I personally prefer the gradual increase in difficulty and I think that Sisters, Host, Mistress, Maiden well pretty well tuned to challenge the 500-1000 guilds but still be doable for them.

imo tuning as it is is fine for early in the tier,but there should be gradual nerfs over time
kinda like the ICC nerf buffs

Something "like" ICC nerf has been in almost every tier since then. Either direct nerfs (ICC, Firelands, Dragon Soul) or indirect by buffing players (SoO, BRF, HFC, Nighthold, Tomb).

Not very useful when so many guilds have disbanded or didn't even bother trying progressing.

If you don't even try the first 3 that are the same difficulty as heroic KJ/Gul'dan/Archimonde/Blackhand, then mythic probably isn't for you. And that's fine. That's the reason there are 4 difficulties in the first place.

The jump to Sisters is a problem.
Mistress is damn near catastrophic, cutting off 2/3 of raiders who got that far.
and by then your already. imo, in disastrously low completion territories considering the limited time left in ToS.

In comparison some 1700 guilds killed Mythic Gul'dan (cant see the exact number but we were 1692 having killed it on the final night before ToS).
This raid only has about 2 more months to go, its setting up to be bad. real bad.

I agree that a smoother difficulty curve would be nicer, but it's hard to hit it exactly. One boss is just a little easier (and pretty much equal to the previous one) and the next is a just a little harder and suddenly you have a "wall" out of nowhere.
Going from Trilliax to Krosus was kinda like going from Harj/DI to Sisters. Same with Star Augur/Mistress being another wall.

The total numbers are slightly lower, but not that drastically. There weren't that many guilds that have killed Gul'dan before 7.2 (we killed him just a couple weeks before around world 60), now there were around 50 kills pre 7.3 and the new kills seems to be comming in a bit quicker than new kills on Gul'dan were right after 7.2.

The problem with avatar and KJ up until very very recently it required class stacking to levels we haven't seen since Deathwing.

It's never great when the fights call for stacking specific utility or the class balance is not good enough to push class stacking for throughput, but I think this statement suffers a bit from short memory.
Blackhand with 3x rogues (clearing mines + feint) + NO other melee + 3 required mages (amplify) + 3 required balance druids (balconies + roars) + 3 required hunters (aspect) would like to have a word.

[Deleted]

out of how many active raiders, raw numbers doesn mean much

[Sarevokcz]

I mean those guilds that still progress mistress got an ilvl that's about 10-15 higher than the first guilds that killed that boss. Players are just worse. I dont think it's the raid.

10-15 higher? not really, we are not even 6 ilevs above method and they used undfergeared blood tank just for soaks. Also doesnt help that regular guilds dont have the flexibility to cherrypick their setup, not having arms warriors, boomies etc or being stuck with heavily underperforming specs mitigates any ilevel advantage you might have. obviously average mythic raiders are worse, but titanforging and split runs skews the perception of how much worse

[theburned]

I mean the best guilds in the world complained about it... so...

the best guilds in the world killed it with 8+2 armageddons, 10b hp KJ (vs 9b), had a few hundered tries where the boss simply had ridiculous numbers and timings (10+2 armageddons), 8m hit from darkness, was it 30m focused dreadflame numbers, really tight timings for first intermission. and well 15% more add hp (than they have currently). After they nerfed armageddons down to 6 they just laughed cause when entering first intermission, because they had a total of 1 armageddon stack.
They consider the fight an absolute joke now.

And tbh the fight is easier than FA now, but imo FA was probably the best fights this tier.

But by all means, be in your own bubble that the fight is even remotely close to what it was when they killed it. Personally we killed it world 6th, 4 days after the nerf to p3 and armageddons down to 6+2, we didnt even get to p3 before the nerf because it was just too punishing, not having enough dps, having 8 armageddons to soak etc. just made the fight a total mess.

[Gravity2015]

LFR is not the same. I can complete LFR by largely afking and auto attacking bosses.

thats my point tho, the vast majority of players are not mythic (as highlighted in OP) - it made me think of the outcry and QQ to remove LFR ... while, clearly LFR is far more active than mythic for the vast majority of players

[Acidbaron]

Mythic is not intended to be cleared by majority of the game or even raiding players, the whole reason there are different difficulties is to justify modes as mythic.

What is fine

[Accendor]

imo tuning as it is is fine for early in the tier,but there should be gradual nerfs over time
kinda like the ICC nerf buffs

No, it should not work like that. Balancing and tuning is fine, but if you want an easy mode, take one of the three other difficulties.

[Deleted]

Well I cannot fathom how it must feel as a guild that once cleared content in 4-6 weeks and then chill-farm it for the next half year to continue a full schedule for months and only progressing the same bosses for tiniest gains. I really wonder how many trys lower-rank guilds will have made that clear the raid while it's still current

[ONCHEhap]

No, it should not work like that. Balancing and tuning is fine, but if you want an easy mode, take one of the three other difficulties.

I get cutting edge every tier,so I'm not looking for an easy mode at all,but after some point there should still have nerfs.the date of your kill is the true prestige,not just killing the boss.

Anyone can get 5/9M now,but it's not as prestigious as getting those kills in the first weeks of the tier

[Orwell7]

Comparison should be done with 2 tiers seen as a block.

Let's talk about Tier X and Y (Y=X+1, so the new raid)
Before Legion:
-you farmed 8/10 Mythic bosses of Tier X
-you got to ilvl 500 average -> heroic dropped 480, mythic dropped 505
-new raid opens -> heroic drops 510, mythic drops 525
-you need an average ilvl of 490 to clear heroic, and 510 to clear mythic
-top guilds reach 510-513 ilvl and they clear the raid in week 2-3, while farming, every week they get an average of +2-3 ilvls.

-> so if you only clear 5-6/10 bosses each week, you got stronger and stronger every week.

In Legion:
-you farmed 8/10 Mythic bosses of Tier X
-you got to ilvl 500 average -> heroic dropped 470, mythic dropped 490
-new raid opens -> heroic drops 495, mythic drops 510
-you need an average ilvl of 490 to clear heroic, and 515 to clear mythic
-top guilds reach 513-515 ilvl and they clear the raid in week 2-3.
-the titanforging cap is 525 -> with every week, you need to get every chance of the roulette to overgear content

-> so if you only clear 5-6/10 bosses each week, you maybe get to an average ilvl of 515, but you are not able to overgear it.

I know, legendaries and the artifact ilvl inflates our average ilvl, but the principle is the same:

1; you cannot overgear content by farming your farm bosses weekly
2; you can overgear content only with luck, and to "get luck" you have to roll the dice as much as possible -> you will burn out a liiiitle bit more easier than before.

[Halyon]

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I was being sarcastic though. I don't care what people raid, and I'm not complaining about anything. If I wanted to raid higher up, I'd improve and find a better guild. I don't, I'm content where I am.

[KaPe]

No, it should not work like that. Balancing and tuning is fine, but if you want an easy mode, take one of the three other difficulties.

And who exactly gets to define what's "easy mode"? You? When top guilds complain about tuning of final bosses, there's something seriously wrong and it would take enormous amount of nerfing to reach this supposed "easy mode". Seeing how the KJ kills haven't even reached triple digits, it's nowhere near as close.

And unless someone expects T3 traits to completely trivialize the fights, further nerfs will be needed to make Cutting Edge more accessible. It generally ended at more than 1000 kills and there's no way this will happen with just the Crucible.

Let's not forget that all this shit starts at Mistress already. She's like Gorefiend, except he gave you access to several "free loot" bosses as a reward. Here, you get to fight stuff that's way worse (except Maiden, but while "easy", she's still extremely punishing) and the carrot isn't there at all.

[Accendor]

And who exactly gets to define what's "easy mode"? You? When top guilds complain about tuning of final bosses, there's something seriously wrong and it would take enormous amount of nerfing to reach this supposed "easy mode". Seeing how the KJ kills haven't even reached triple digits, it's nowhere near as close.

And unless someone expects T3 traits to completely trivialize the fights, further nerfs will be needed to make Cutting Edge more accessible. It generally ended at more than 1000 kills and there's no way this will happen with just the Crucible.

Let's not forget that all this shit starts at Mistress already. She's like Gorefiend, except he gave you access to several "free loot" bosses as a reward. Here, you get to fight stuff that's way worse (except Maiden, but while "easy", she's still extremely punishing) and the carrot isn't there at all.

Again: If the tuning is off then please fix it. That is totally fine. But we do not need a automatic nerf system like in ICC. That is all I wanted to say.

[dreamdaddy]

By the end of the tier, Mythic should not be cleared by more than 2-5% of guilds. If you want to fit in the 2-5%, you do what it takes - class stacking, abusing mechanics in a proper way(not exploiting), etc. As a former top20 raider, we busted our asses day and night to get our ranks.

It seems these days people are more inclined to say the bosses dont match the capabilities of the guilds rather than the guilds not matching the requirements by the boss.

The issue is that the encounter designers for ToS seemed to design the fights in a way that they would take Exorsus, Method et al. at least a couple of clears to get them down (though that time was largely because of shoddy timing/mechanical execution) as a way to arbitrarily prolong the WF race so they could pat themselves on the back for how challenging this tier was for the top guilds. They knew these guilds would class stack so they might have designed the fight with stacking rogues/double bear in mind, which works for top guilds but for your average joe guild, it's hard enough keeping a 20+ person roster throughout the whole tier, much less one with X # of rogues, Y # of immunities, etc. M Manno had the same issue in HFC with DKs so it seems like the messaging is that if you don't have the requisite number of classes, you're expected to just wait until you have enough gear to brute force the fight down without mechanics.

I think every fight in M TOS (outside of Avatar and KJ) is balanced decently well, as someone in a middling 6/9M guild who isn't looking forward to the brick wall that will be Avatar.

[Gaidax]

I think it's fine, it is supposed to be the biggest challenge out there, would be silly if it would fall over just like that.

Besides with Crucible and raid nerfs I am sure this will ramp up fast, pretty convinced there will be at least 500 guilds with KJ done by the time Antorus is out.

I am also pretty sure there will be more nerfs just about before Antorus is out.

[david0925]

Is this not to be expected of mythic mode? So the 'hardcore' raiders can feel special and such, while us peasents faff about with heroic.

if they only actually gave out reward proportionate to the difficulty involved.

I don't have an issue with hard fights for the most part, but i think the reward versus risk (defined as time investment) for Mythic raid is at a all time low with how convoluted gear progression has become.

- - - Updated - - -

Again: If the tuning is off then please fix it. That is totally fine. But we do not need a automatic nerf system like in ICC. That is all I wanted to say.

Crucible is basically the automatically nerf system as long as your raiders are not lazy and actually get the traits reasonable for the respective AK level.

[Kokolums]

Yah theres really no reward in clearing it, especially with the argus vendor and m+ providing good gear.

[Arainie]

I've already posted my view here before but I think the whole direction of the thread is a bit off. The fights themselves are not actually that difficult in theory (besides KJ I suppose), but in practice you suffer greatly if you don't have many immunities (rogues). That's a huge design flaw IMO, and even though a boss like Mistress is difficult (My 6h/week 5/9 guild had her on 18% last reset after 50~ pulls and will surely kill soon with crucible buffs) it's doable with more or less any setup if you disregard the first weeks blood dk abuse. KJ and Avatar have since been nerfed in steps to try to combat the rogue stacking, but I can't say too much about them since I haven't tried them yet.

All in all though, way too many fights have solo player soak-or-wipe concepts (Goroth, Host, Maiden, Avatar, KJ) and while that's an acceptable concept on a boss or two the current design just presents a huge problem for everyone but the very bleeding edge guilds willing to maintain several raid ready characters per player.