So...Why is none of the NPCs powerfull and awesome anymore?

[Flurryfang]

Isn't that what they are? Seafaring vykul who are ghosts and come back to kill? Helya is pretty much a sea goddess and all the vrykul fear her and going out to sea. That's why they don't bury their kings at Shield's Rest anymore, or send their dead out to sea on viking funerals.

Well yes, but i think that the original idea, that was really all they were and having them be servants of Helya was an expansion of their lore that came later

Originally i think that them being taken by the sea, risen up from the kelp and mist with the only purpose to kill, create more Kvaldir and spread the mist was their only purpose Not anything with serving a queen.

[Deleted]

After we kill Evil Tree in Emerald Nightmare, Malfurion says stopping Xavius could "buy us enough time to defeat the Legion before the true threat rises from the shadows." Sounds ominous to me, and like he doesn't believe the Legion is our biggest problem.

Ok, I get Malfurion, he gets pass as he has had alot of ground covered and still to go regarding the nightmare. But I mean every faction leader, the council of 6, the dragon aspects, every single reputation group that side with the horde and the alliance - I mean literally all we have is Velen, Turaylon, 2 Windrunner sisters, Illidan, that Draenai with the badass voice with the monocle and Arator on the bridge of the only ship we have on Argus, and as I believe the only thing that can take us back. The Prime Naaru we have is dead, and yet we don't really get anyone else coming?

I get I am reading waaayyy to much into this, and realistically every major threat we have had in previous expansions should have the same thing (everyone banding together to fight the main foe), it just feels a bit...empty of key people? Apart from Khadgar blasting the mana starved in the blue aspect enclave in Azuna, I haven't seem him lift a finger to even fight. Christ, I have to pick his coins up in a WQ haha

[cparle87]

Apart from Khadgar blasting the mana starved in the blue aspect enclave in Azuna, I haven't seem him lift a finger to even fight. Christ, I have to pick his coins up in a WQ haha

Wasn't he the one who prevented Karazhan from falling into the hands of the Legion, helped several of us find our artifacts, convinced the Kirin Tor to let the Horde back into Dalaran, put Illidan's soul back inside his body, and teleport us all home safely so we didn't end up a greasy smear on the surface of Krokuun after we killed Kil'jaeden? Seems to me he's done plenty.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The differences only really seem obvious if you want them to be.

I think you really forget all the other powerful and highly important lore figures we've faced off with over the years. You make it sound like we were just always off helping little old ladies across the street and then one day we're punching out Jesus or something.

Ultimately, it seems like what people really take exception to isn't the actual deeds, but the recognition from NPCs, which is such a weird thing to get upset about.

You are right. The LORE FIGURES were powerful. We helped THEM. Now they sit around and help US.

Also very far from upset. That is putting emotion to text. Just.. just don't. I consider that done. Just trying to make my point.

[Flurryfang]

Dude, as a fire mage I wield Felo'Melorn, a weapon which could match Frostmourne in combat after it was reforged and whose swing turned demons into ash during the War of the Ancients (and that was a weaker version compared to its reforged form VS Frostmourne) and yet a deer in Azuna would probably kill me before I kill it if I used nothing but my basic attack.

Gameplay =/= actual power

See that first part is something i would call a problem as well, but the entire artifact is for another day.

There is a big difference between holding back the actual power of the character, so that their gameplay works well and then holding back the power of an NPC. The player character needs to be played, you need to have hard enemies and easy enemies, and for that to work, you have to do be limited in your power so that you don't 1-shot every enemy or else it would be boring to play.

On the other hand, we have the NPC. This is a character, that does not need playing, therefore there is no need to limit their power because there is no player behind them that can get bored of 1-shotting enemies. This character does also not need to be in every situation. You can design encounters around that NPCs power and make sure, that the actual power is not broken or disrupted at all. When Turalyon first went into to battle, you can easily design enemies which he fights, that makes this character look like a badass, because you don't have to design around him then going to azsuna and killing deers...

I think this grounds in that Blizz proberly made a small mistake about implementing characters like Turalyon and Alleria into combat scenarios in the game. Instead of designing encounters around the player being followed by these "badass" characters, they just put us into normal player scenarioes and reduced the NPCs power to a point, where they might aswell not have been there. This makes me not care about these characters, when all they seem to be able to do is use basic attacsk and a consecrate every now and then.

[Deleted]

Wasn't he the one who prevented Karazhan from falling into the hands of the Legion, helped several of us find our artifacts, convinced the Kirin Tor to let the Horde back into Dalaran, put Illidan's soul back inside his body, and teleport us all home safely so we didn't end up a greasy smear on the surface of Krokuun after we killed Kil'jaeden? Seems to me he's done plenty.

I mean actual fighting on Argus. We were the instrumental people for both the Karazhan scenario, and subsequently the fight through 'New Karazhan'. Artifacts - I have to take your word for that, as he wasn't part of the artifacts I got on my characters. Technically you are correct with the soul, but we got the heart, fought our way through the exodar, did everything the naaru told us to do in the visions, collected the souls, fought into Hellheim and then handed it to him while we fought Gul'Dan.

But yeah, the portal part you have me haha, that was also kind of bad ass too.

I clearly am thinking too much into this of course, but surely you kind of see my point? Resting everything on like 5 people when everyone lives are at stake, and there are many powerful allies that are about that all have everything to lose and they aren't there. It just seems a bit odd.

[cparle87]

I mean actual fighting on Argus. We were the instrumental people for both the Karazhan scenario, and subsequently the fight through 'New Karazhan'. Artifacts - I have to take your word for that, as he wasn't part of the artifacts I got on my characters. Technically you are correct with the soul, but we got the heart, fought our way through the exodar, did everything the naaru told us to do in the visions, collected the souls, fought into Hellheim and then handed it to him while we fought Gul'Dan.

But yeah, the portal part you have me haha, that was also kind of bad ass too.

I clearly am thinking too much into this of course, but surely you kind of see my point? Resting everything on like 5 people when everyone lives are at stake, and there are many powerful allies that are about that all have everything to lose and they aren't there. It just seems a bit odd.

Well, in lore there's a lot more of us, and some of "us" have become npcs. For instance all the Black Harvest warlocks were "players" who were present at the falls of Illidan, Cho'gall, Ragnaros, and Deathwing. Then there's the canon Scarab Lord, even though she hasn't appeared ingame. In current lore at the very least each raid has at least twelve of us, the twelve order hall leaders. Remember the 7.2 cinematic with Khadgar talking? There was a representative from each class standing each for "us" while we were still out in the field.

On another subject, yeah that was a badass moment. I always like it when we get to see classic abilities in action. Wasn't mass teleport the ultimate ability of the archmage unit in WC3? I know Jaina did it a lot, like in the Ulduar patch and Mount Hyjal raid.

[Deleted]

Well, in lore there's a lot more of us, and some of "us" have become npcs. For instance all the Black Harvest warlocks were "players" who were present at the falls of Illidan, Cho'gall, Ragnaros, and Deathwing. Then there's the canon Scarab Lord, even though she hasn't appeared ingame. In current lore at the very least each raid has at least twelve of us, the twelve order hall leaders. Remember the 7.2 cinematic with Khadgar talking? There was a representative from each class standing each for "us" while we were still out in the field.

On another subject, yeah that was a badass moment. I always like it when we get to see classic abilities in action. Wasn't mass teleport the ultimate ability of the archmage unit in WC3? I know Jaina did it a lot, like in the Ulduar patch and Mount Hyjal raid.

Jaina was spamming it left, right and centre in Hyjal!

[cparle87]

Jaina was spamming it left, right and centre in Hyjal!

Yeah, though if I remember the spell from WC3 correctly Khadgar must've modified it. The original spell, I think, could only teleport the user and those nearby to the location of another friendly target. So unless Khadgar instructed someone to go up to that pagoda in Azsuna to be the target of the spell, and none of us ever saw him, Khadgar's been cooking up new magic for us.

[Darktbs]

I think this grounds in that Blizz proberly made a small mistake about implementing characters like Turalyon and Alleria into combat scenarios in the game. Instead of designing encounters around the player being followed by these "badass" characters, they just put us into normal player scenarioes and reduced the NPCs power to a point, where they might aswell not have been there. This makes me not care about these characters, when all they seem to be able to do is use basic attacsk and a consecrate every now and then.

They can't really design encounters like that because the scenarios/dungeons must be designed around the player(s) actions.

For example, the Tanking artifact challenge, Velen its supposed to be the strongest of the Priest and all that shit, but he is nerfed for gameplay reasons, using a couple of Smites and droping healing orbs when he could simply destroy the first boss with Holy magic.

And "You can design encounters around that NPCs power and make sure, that the actual power is not broken or disrupted at all."Its not really possible, if you create a encounter around the actions of a Npc you depend on him for the encounter to be done, removing player's control over the situation, shure you can have a encounter where they assist the players or a specific mechanic that said character will execute, but nothing that removes the player's control over the fight.

Honestly, this is a case of Gameplay =/= Lore.

[Flurryfang]

They can't really design encounters like that because the scenarios/dungeons must be designed around the player(s) actions.

For example, the Tanking artifact challenge, Velen its supposed to be the strongest of the Priest and all that shit, but he is nerfed for gameplay reasons, using a couple of Smites and droping healing orbs when he could simply destroy the first boss with Holy magic.

And "You can design encounters around that NPCs power and make sure, that the actual power is not broken or disrupted at all."Its not really possible, if you create a encounter around the actions of a Npc you depend on him for the encounter to be done, removing player's control over the situation, shure you can have a encounter where they assist the players or a specific mechanic that said character will execute, but nothing that removes the player's control over the fight.

Honestly, this is a case of Gameplay =/= Lore.

All what you have written only works if you think that the NPCs can only only come to life while they are beside the player. I oppose that. I think that the NPCs can come to life while being watched and observed by the player, not while fighting with them. Like the Velen thing. It did not have to be Velen healing and helping you in the tanking artifact challenge. It could easily have been somebody whos power could match what is actually happening and which had been made for that situation. By putting Velen into that situation, limiting his powers just to make him, then you are needlessly sacrificing Lore and character build-up for Gameplay without it being a nessesity.

And when it comes to creating encounters around the power of the NPC, all you have to do is split the encounter up to what is the objective and purpose of the NPC and what is the objective and purpose of the player. Having these two things seperated allows you to create opponents each matching the characters power. You can still as a player have control over a situation, when you have to deal with a big elite guy, that only you can kill, but it does not hurt, if at the same time, the NPC character, lets take Turalyon here, had also to kill some big elite guys just more or stronger. Creating the event so, that as soon as you kill the elite, Turalyon does the same, allows for both characters to actually show their true power and not disrupt each other control or experience.

I get that you like to say that Gameplay =/= Lore, but i say that things are being sacrificed without them actually being needed to. And at the same time, the amount of character build up being sacrificed and character confusion being created far outweighs the amount of good gameplay, that you get from introducing famous NPCs as your combat companions. Having both good Gameplay and good established Lore characters, who have a good pressence in the world and a clear picture of their powerlvl compared to the player, should not be this hard to get.

[Darktbs]

All what you have written only works if you think that the NPCs can only only come to life while they are beside the player. I oppose that. I think that the NPCs can come to life while being watched and observed by the player, not while fighting with them. Like the Velen thing. It did not have to be Velen healing and helping you in the tanking artifact challenge. It could easily have been somebody whos power could match what is actually happening and which had been made for that situation. By putting Velen into that situation, limiting his powers just to make him, then you are needlessly sacrificing Lore and character build-up for Gameplay without it being a nessesity.

And when it comes to creating encounters around the power of the NPC, all you have to do is split the encounter up to what is the objective and purpose of the NPC and what is the objective and purpose of the player. Having these two things seperated allows you to create opponents each matching the characters power. You can still as a player have control over a situation, when you have to deal with a big elite guy, that only you can kill, but it does not hurt, if at the same time, the NPC character, lets take Turalyon here, had also to kill some big elite guys just more or stronger. Creating the event so, that as soon as you kill the elite, Turalyon does the same, allows for both characters to actually show their true power and not disrupt each other control or experience.

I get that you like to say that Gameplay =/= Lore, but i say that things are being sacrificed without them actually being needed to. And at the same time, the amount of character build up being sacrificed and character confusion being created far outweighs the amount of good gameplay, that you get from introducing famous NPCs as your combat companions. Having both good Gameplay and good established Lore characters, who have a good pressence in the world and a clear picture of their powerlvl compared to the player, should not be this hard to get.

Yes they can come to life but for how long?The Vindicar has lots of interations between the characters but 1)Are limited in quantity 2) are limited by the fact the game focus around the Player character.Vereessa and Alleria conversation would be really interesting to hear, but you can because they are talking in private and you (the player) have other things to do.If it was in the RTS where we control the characters, blizzard could've easily made a in-game cinematic of them talking.

And what you suggested its not a encounter based around a Npc, for he has no effect in the fight, rather he is a background.Much like Illidan in the Cathedral, he is there killing bats in the sky.

[shinyteethqt]

i agree, because they rolled out dev teams, i think they aren't in sync. It would be significantly more epic if when you port down on argus you just see Illidan destroying waves and waves.

But whoever was in charge of that got lazy or didn't think and it's just him standing there looking at low level mobs as they wander around. Personally i would've made his "dmg" super high, but if you kite a boss to him and he deals the killing blow, then it should gray out for the player trying to exploit.

Turalyon should be like in his Lightforge Armor just blasting the crap out of ppl ......they lost that "craziness of war" feeling by not addressing it.

[Soon-TM]

Because ppl did lost their @#$5 with things like Thrall killstealing Deathwing or Garrosh going from a brutish, but well-intentioned leader to an Orc Hitler in less than two years >.<

[Flurryfang]

Yes they can come to life but for how long?The Vindicar has lots of interations between the characters but 1)Are limited in quantity 2) are limited by the fact the game focus around the Player character.Vereessa and Alleria conversation would be really interesting to hear, but you can because they are talking in private and you (the player) have other things to do.If it was in the RTS where we control the characters, blizzard could've easily made a in-game cinematic of them talking.

And what you suggested its not a encounter based around a Npc, for he has no effect in the fight, rather he is a background.Much like Illidan in the Cathedral, he is there killing bats in the sky.

It does not really matter how long they come to life, aslong as they are seen alive and seen activite in the current conflict or a conflict that matters for their character or the overall story. The Veressa and Alleria conversation is really good and it is in-game for us to be spectators/observers. I have nothing against such showing of NPC character, just aslong as they are also paired with actually showcases of power, when one of the primary attributes of that character is, that they are powerful.

Well, the encounter overall is not based/focused around the NPC, but the encounter which the NPC is active inside, is. Thats the difference. And it is alright for him to be in the background, aslong as he is fighting something you have a relationship to, so lets say a normal 5-man elite with 100mill HP. We know these enemies, most players proberly fight them everyday and we also know how long it will take. You can easily show Turalyons power with him using some abilities taking down these elites way faster then any individuelle player could, setting him higher then any player, but possibly lower then the players at-large.

The problem with Illidan in Cathedral, is that he says that is gonna fight bats, but he not only does it in the background, but he does it off screen. It could have been a cool scenario, if we actually saw him take down bats throughout the boss battle and have him pin them down on the floor.

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i agree, because they rolled out dev teams, i think they aren't in sync. It would be significantly more epic if when you port down on argus you just see Illidan destroying waves and waves.

But whoever was in charge of that got lazy or didn't think and it's just him standing there looking at low level mobs as they wander around. Personally i would've made his "dmg" super high, but if you kite a boss to him and he deals the killing blow, then it should gray out for the player trying to exploit.

Turalyon should be like in his Lightforge Armor just blasting the crap out of ppl ......they lost that "craziness of war" feeling by not addressing it.

What i really miss from the game when it comes to a guy like Turalyon, is his moment of glory.

A scene where you as the player stand and say "holy fuck, things are not good right now and we are gonna lose" and then we have Turalyon come in from the sky or the hills, leading a relief force, taking down the bad guys and taking names, turning the side of battle mostly on his own. Something like that is what would make Turalyon stand out in my head in the future.

[Jueles]

We are the Deathlord, leader of the Ebon Blade, right hand of the Lich King, wielding reforged Frostmourne.

We are the Slayer, acting leader of the Illidari, wielding warglaives empowered by Kil'Jaeden himself.

We are the Archdruid of the Dreamgrove, wielder and tamer of the Scythe of Elune, blessed by the spirits of Ursoc and Ashamane.

We are the Huntmaster of the Unseen Path, wielder of the Thas'dorah and Titanstrike, legendary weapons of untold power.

We are the Conjuror of the Tirisgarde, wielder of the weapons of both the first and second to last Guardians.

We are the Grandmaster of the Broken Temple, wielder of the power of the Windlord himself.

We are Highlord of the Silverhand, the Ashbringer, appointed by Tirion himself on his deathbed.

We are The High Priest of the Conclave, wielding both the Light and Shadow against our foes.

We are the Shadow of Uncrowned, wielding the deadliest weapons ever known to Azeroth.

We are Farseer of the Earther Ring wielding the Doomhammer and the power of the Titans.

We are the First of the Council of the Black Harvest, wielding the Scepter of Sargeras himself.

We are the Battlelord of the Valajar, wielding legendary swords forged by Odyn and empowered by Helya beyond their original power.

The NPCs haven't become less powerful, but the player character has caught up to them and even surpassed their power.

I laughed so hard when they made my Pally, who I have no clue how to play - in any which way or form - Highlord of the Silverhand - they must be really desperate to have me lead I can't even believe that the fate of these worlds rest in the hands of my Holy Priest (main)!!

The mighty heroes are a motley lot - believing that I am going to save the day...is a joke.

[Deleted]

Most powerful paladin in the warcraft universe... How do you know that? Aside from Blizzard just telling you it, how do you see it in the game? There is something callled show not tell, and Blizzard is horrible at the showing part. If i challenge your claim, you have no way to actually counter me and that is the problem.

He was hand-picked, not a Draenei or even the Light Natherzim, by the Naaru to lead the Army of the Light. So, yeah, unless you have knowledge of some other unknown paladin, he is the current most powerful paladin in Warcraft universe.

He killed a completly weak gul'dan, my rogue could have taken that kill at that point

Pointless speculation that bring nothing to your argument.

and as shown earlier both here and in other threads, we have no idea how strong a Prime Naaru is, so he might aswell have broken a mirror with that eye beam.

We do know how powerful a Naaru is, a Prime Naaru is most likely powerful.

And sure, he DID tank Kil'jaeden which helps a little, but then again, he did not take any dmg or do any dmg, so from the player point of view, he might aswell been a targeting dummy.

Game mechanics != lore. You really should stop using them for argument's sake.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

NPCs are first and foremost plot devices. They are as powerful or as limited as the writers need them to be to justify whatever quest they want to send us on. Their capabilities and involvement can vary dramatically from one quest series to the next.

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I laughed so hard when they made my Pally, who I have no clue how to play - in any which way or form - Highlord of the Silverhand - they must be really desperate to have me lead I can't even believe that the fate of these worlds rest in the hands of my Holy Priest (main)!!

The mighty heroes are a motley lot - believing that I am going to save the day...is a joke.

lol ~ I think the best was when my monk showed up at the temple in the middle of a Legion assault, helped fight off a few demons, and was then put in charge of the place. Felt a lot like Kung Fu Panda being told he was the Dragon Warrior.

[The Iron Fist]

It's because 'Power Fantasy' has taken over this game. Everything in the game has to be epic now, instead of being an immersive fantasy. For many, the games lore has been irreversibly destroyed. We'll see what they do with 8.0 where after our artifacts are destroyed and the power with them, maybe we'll lose our powers as well. It'd be nice to go back to being a mercenary ala classic through cataclysm.