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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissintel View Post
    What's strange too is that (while I have put money into SC) fans of the game get super upset when you point out that has elements of Pay to Win.
    Yeah, when you have to "preorder" certain ships for nearly the price of new games (I can't remember specifics as to the ship's name or the exact price)...needless to say, I gave my friend that tilted-head "dafuq?" expression.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    I've gotten my entertainment out of those, but do I still think I was a bit of a dumbass? Yes, there's a small nagging voice in my head telling me I should know better...yet at the same time, I've had enough fun out of those emotes to justify the cost. Weird how I can view it that way.
    This to me is the key part. It's not weird. You got time value for your money. That is what people should be comparing to in order to determine "value". Do you feel you got enjoyment out of what you paid. It shouldn't matter what game X did, or that other flashy thing.

    I'll often compare things to movies. The price of a movie here is $15-$20, depending on the theatre you go to. Movies clock under 3 hours, so I'm spending $4-$5 per hour for enjoyment. If I buy a $60 game, if it gives me 12-15 hours playtime, that's value.

    Hell, I like doing escape rooms, having done over 30. They're $25 for 45 minutes.

    People just seem to have really high expectations for what they should get out of a $60 game.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    This to me is the key part. It's not weird. You got time value for your money. That is what people should be comparing to in order to determine "value". Do you feel you got enjoyment out of what you paid. It shouldn't matter what game X did, or that other flashy thing.

    I'll often compare things to movies. The price of a movie here is $15-$20, depending on the theatre you go to. Movies clock under 3 hours, so I'm spending $4-$5 per hour for enjoyment. If I buy a $60 game, if it gives me 12-15 hours playtime, that's value.

    Hell, I like doing escape rooms, having done over 30. They're $25 for 45 minutes.

    People just seem to have really high expectations for what they should get out of a $60 game.
    Reminds me of all the years I've had to defend the idea of spending $15 per month to play a game, whether it was WoW back then, or as I do now with FF14. As you noted, that's less than the price of a ticket + drink/popcorn at a movie theater nowadays, so it's no different than going to a movie once a month; once I relate it to people that way, they tend to bug off.

    Those emotes were almost the same price as 2 months of sub time, though. I don't get that feeling of buyer's remorse about them now, though. Wrote them off in my mind as a birthday gift.

    Escape rooms are fun; did one a year or two ago as part of a "team building exercise", where groups of us were split up into different parts of the building for the various puzzles or whatever. That one didn't cost me, though...company covered it.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftshadow View Post
    Yep. Basically this.

    Only ever early access game I bought was The Division. I am never making that mistake again. I honestly think the only decent companies are Rockstar, CD Projekt and Larian Studios.

    EA obviously not.
    Even Bethesda seems like they are turning slightly scummy.
    Activision Blizzard I too have lost faith. Just a matter of time IMO.
    Almost any of the countless P2W mobile games. I would glady pay the price of a full PC game for a mobile game, IF it's good and NOT the usual P2W or gacha.

    I understand the motive to make money as companies. But false promises on a product is borderline scamming imo.
    Sorry you feel this way, but imo Blizzard is one of if not the only company that still provides new content updates for games nearing 20 years old. Even before SC Remastered they were balancing/adding patches. On top of that, OW which is a one-time purchase constantly has new content, maps, heroes, game modes even. And you aren't charged for *any of this* when all of the companies you listed would clearly charge for all of these features. Blizzard has its issues, but its more on the listening side, and even then the forums make it out to be way worse than it is.

    D3 before RoS and after still gets new content. I'm just saying, when it comes to bang for your buck Blizzard is leagues ahead. Activision however, we could agree on.

  5. #265
    The Insane Aeilon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus Victoria View Post
    Greetings champions. This is a small rant that I'll be making, so #1 - don't take things too seriously, 'cause I'm pissed off, #2, feel free to disagree/agree with me, #3 - I'd be grateful if you contribute with the thread with your opinion.

    So, okay. Here it goes:

    What the actual fuck is happening with our video-game industry? We're slowly melting into some kind of monster, made of money and greedyness. "Welcome to the real world, kiddo" is something that I hear all the time, but really? Are you okay with these kinds of stuff?

    Since the last generation, the gaming market has been suffering from a lot of topics, some that I present below:


    • Full games are being torn apart to be released in small chunks;
    • Expansion Packs became small DLC content that costs just as much;
    • Paid skins in free games became gambling microtransactions in PAID GAMES;
    • Don't even get me started in Season Passes (Paying for the "promise" of future content, that sometimes takes a long, long time to be released);
    • Triple-A games and companies going to Early Access;
    • EARLY FUCKING ACCESS;
    • Paying to participate in a Beta Game (Quake: Champions is an example of this);
    • Lack of creativity in the triple-A department, leading to that "Deja vu"(I've already played this!) feeling in various games;
    • Indie gaming suffering from a lot of problems as well (used to be a cool market, but greed is making it slowly degrade as well);
    • Kickstarter leading to a lot of failures and bad games;
    • Companies being shady as fuck (Warner Bros with the death of its employee;
    • Charging for MODS. MODS, for fuck sake.
    • Asset Flippers stealing games and assets to flood online stores with shitty games;

    And much, much more. I understand that gaming isn't all bad nowadays, but we should not be having to thank developers if they choose to include "free content after launch" or if their PC port of game X runs well, as these kinds of thing should be expected to be there from the start! Again, I understand the old saying "Welcome to the real world, kid", but I disagree. We still have ways to vote against these kinds of bullshit - with our wallets.

    Anyway. Thanks for reading, and sorry for the outrage. I hope you agree with me in some topics, and if you disagree, feel free to express your opinion. I'm all ears.
    I agree with most things, but let me say about the skins...Heroes of The Storm does this perfectly. You get so many cool shit from boxes and you can get said boxes so easy as well that it's a non issue.

    The system Overwatch uses is disgusting though.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Reminds me of all the years I've had to defend the idea of spending $15 per month to play a game, whether it was WoW back then, or as I do now with FF14. As you noted, that's less than the price of a ticket + drink/popcorn at a movie theater nowadays, so it's no different than going to a movie once a month; once I relate it to people that way, they tend to bug off.
    That's exactly how it should be done. Once WoW stopped giving me value for the money, I cancelled my sub. I was still putting time into it, but just not getting value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Those emotes were almost the same price as 2 months of sub time, though. I don't get that feeling of buyer's remorse about them now, though. Wrote them off in my mind as a birthday gift.
    In the grand scheme of value though, it was still worth it. Compared to an MMO subscription, maybe not, but if you're putting a lot of time into an MMO (5-10+ hours per week), you'll almost never equal that for value.

    The main thing that has hamstrung most video games is is the stagnation of the $60-$70 price tag. No one has wanted to test the market with a really expensive game.

    Looking at the board game market, back in the 90's/00's, most games were in the $20-$50 range, and were pretty simple. Now they are in the $20-$150 range. Which is why I think DLC's have become such a big deal now, because it's easier to sell someone on a $60 game, then $40 in DLC over the course of a year, than trying to convince someone to drop $100 on a game. The smaller the transaction, the more likely people are to not think about it. Behavioural economics.

  7. #267
    The Patient Ooid's Avatar
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    Consumers abide the companies doing these things because they accept it and buy it. As others have said, the only way to change the industry is to not put up with the greedy cash grabs that are plaguing games.
    pls rember that wen u feel scare or frigten
    never forget ttimes wen u feeled happy
    wen day is dark alway rember happy day

  8. #268
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    So, let me preface this by saying I'm not disagreeing with you, but more explaining some of the things. I'm coming from a background of both a lifelong gamer of the 80s, as well as a game designer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus Victoria View Post
    Are you okay with these kinds of stuff?
    Just because it's happening doesn't mean people are okay with it. Look at well... ANYTHING in the world. There's plenty of stuff that happens that people aren't okay with, but it still happens, is the norm.

    Since the last generation
    "Gaming" has really only been around since like... 2 generations ago so that's a weird statement >.>

    [*]Full games are being torn apart to be released in small chunks;
    This isn't entirely something people don't want. Especially with how big games are getting, it allows development to be in stages. As long as the timeliness is good, it's fine.. Most of the time. (HL2 E3 says hello)

    [*]Expansion Packs became small DLC content that costs just as much;
    This is, unfortunately, the product of a thriving (Game) economy. Game companies (Read: businesses) are largely there to make money. If they know they can charge more for it, they will.

    [*]Paid skins in free games became gambling microtransactions in PAID GAMES;
    This is a grey area for both me, and most people. Microtransactions are fine if its just aesthetics, usually. Paid game or not. But this can also get out of hand, too.

    [*]Don't even get me started in Season Passes (Paying for the "promise" of future content, that sometimes takes a long, long time to be released);
    I think these are great, IF they're implemented well. For people who pick up games later, it's nice paying $20 for $60 worth of DLC... If they actually put out. Again, a bit of a gamble early on.

    [*]Triple-A games and companies going to Early Access;
    This is a curious thing lately, and can have both big positives and negatives. Minecraft was in alpha/beta/early access for YEARS. When I was still doing map design/development on it, people were thrilled about the idea.

    [*]Paying to participate in a Beta Game (Quake: Champions is an example of this);
    Pretty much the same as Early Access. Pay at a discount (usually) before the game is finished to get input opportunity, or just see the development process.

    [*]Lack of creativity in the triple-A department, leading to that "Deja vu"(I've already played this!) feeling in various games;
    This is common with any form of entertainment. Just look at the movie industry.

    [*]Indie gaming suffering from a lot of problems as well (used to be a cool market, but greed is making it slowly degrade as well);[*]Kickstarter leading to a lot of failures and bad games;
    This isn't a problem, really. This is simply that games are easier to make now (or easier tools to use) so you see a lot of poor games out there, because anyone can make them. It's like having a museum opening up it's exhibit to anyone to post art, including your 4 year old nephew. On the flip side, there are a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount of absolutely fantastic games, many which people never even hear about.

    [*]Companies being shady as fuck (Warner Bros with the death of its employee;
    This isn't new, special, or even unique to the game industry. We only see it because the gaming industry is much more mainstream now.

    [*]Charging for MODS. MODS, for fuck sake.
    Yeah, that's... pretty stupid.

    [*]Asset Flippers stealing games and assets to flood online stores with shitty games;
    I'm not quite sure what this means. Are you referring to grey markets like G2A? Or referring to actual graphic/sound assets and creating nearly identical games on the app market?

    "Welcome to the real world, kid", but I disagree. We still have ways to vote against these kinds of bullshit - with our wallets.
    On one hand, it's true. The industry has changed. Just like we don't use land lines and two stroke engines anymore, it is simply something that has changed. It's not something that we can go back from. There are simply too many people happy (or at least content) with the setup. We do vote with our wallets... And your opinion is simply in the minority, which is exactly why things are the way they are. If you went to a rally with all the gamers in the world with this rant, and said 'vote with your wallet', most people would simply go 'eh' because these simply aren't big enough issues to warrant change.

    And when they ARE big enough issues, it shows. There are TONS of times that a company has done something messed up, and something was done about it.

    Mass Effect Andromeda, for example. People flipped out and they fixed it (sort of. Kinda. They acted quickly about a few points, anyway, and promptly dumped it in the garbage)
    No Man's Sky is another example of outrage, and while it's taken WAY too long, and they've eaten the damage done, they're still putting out stuff more or less on their own dime.

    There's other stuff too, on a social level as well, more than just 'fixing games'. Shady Behavior, if its shady enough, may get acted upon. Alternatively, LITERALLY bad things sometimes wont be, because people don't care. And absolutely trivial things get acted upon because, again, people.
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  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Helryx View Post
    Normies happened.
    I agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Reynholm
    God damn these electric sex pants.

  10. #270
    Every gaming era decade has had shitty behavior like this.

    Everything you mention is a Very useful tool for selling games, developing games and providing additional content but as usual, it gets abused by those wanting to make oodles of money. Even at the cost of the games content. reputation and success.

    This happened with expansion packs, DLC, and now with shops and transactions.

    with every new idea and tool comes the opportunity to abuse it and the chance to mismanage it (early access).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Really the gaming industry is just going through its usual issues and upheavals. Things change and the more they change the more they remain the same. They just have different toys to mess up as they follow the same patterns of behavior they did in the past with the stakes even higher.

    Through in risk aversion and executive sabotage and we're still in the 80's and 90's.

  11. #271
    Capitalism and corporate greed. Gaming companies push each other to squeeze the most out of their customers. Because apparently in a capitalist world perpetual and limitless growth are needed to survive. Reminds me of some horrible disease.

  12. #272
    Pit Lord Lotus Victoria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    "Gaming" has really only been around since like... 2 generations ago so that's a weird statement >.>
    Last console generation. We've been experiencing these kinds of stuff since the PS3/X360.


    This is a grey area for both me, and most people. Microtransactions are fine if its just aesthetics, usually. Paid game or not. But this can also get out of hand, too.
    My problem with this isn't exacltly the microtransactions, but the way they are implemented. If I want to buy a skin, I want to buy a skin. I hate the fact that, in the past, I could spend ~3 bucks and buy a skin for my favourite weapon. Now I have to spend 15 trying to get this skin in a random box.

    I'm not quite sure what this means. Are you referring to grey markets like G2A? Or referring to actual graphic/sound assets and creating nearly identical games on the app market?
    Literally swapping assets and flooding online stores with identical copies of shitty games. Here, if you want more information on this topic.

  13. #273
    Sadly, gamers happened. As long as people are willing to pay for whatever sh*t developers want to sell, we'll never move on.

  14. #274
    Stood in the Fire
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    Games became mainstream. Normies happened. Normies ruin everything.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by rosebull View Post
    Sorry you feel this way, but imo Blizzard is one of if not the only company that still provides new content updates for games nearing 20 years old. Even before SC Remastered they were balancing/adding patches. On top of that, OW which is a one-time purchase constantly has new content, maps, heroes, game modes even. And you aren't charged for *any of this* when all of the companies you listed would clearly charge for all of these features. Blizzard has its issues, but its more on the listening side, and even then the forums make it out to be way worse than it is.

    D3 before RoS and after still gets new content. I'm just saying, when it comes to bang for your buck Blizzard is leagues ahead. Activision however, we could agree on.
    Blizzard is one of the biggest offenders of them all. Lead product is a Skinner box. Hots, ow, and hearth are all FoM fake video games that emphasize after match rewards over actual balanced gameplay. Most of the content is re hashed stuff you've done and anything new implemented already has a plan in place to be re used down the line.

  16. #276
    Warchief Detheavn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Remember when we got multiple demos on a disc in print magazines?

    Man, we let the Internet ruin everything!
    Nowadays on Steam we can buy a game and get a refun within 2 hours of playtime. Not a bad deal tbh.

  17. #277
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus Victoria View Post
    Last console generation. We've been experiencing these kinds of stuff since the PS3/X360.
    Ah, console generations, got it. yeah, that's when companies started realizing they can do it, and people will buy it.

    My problem with this isn't exactly the microtransactions, but the way they are implemented. If I want to buy a skin, I want to buy a skin. I hate the fact that, in the past, I could spend ~3 bucks and buy a skin for my favourite weapon. Now I have to spend 15 trying to get this skin in a random box.
    This is actually a curious thing, and I think it's an evolved version of the Gashapon or Gacha systems in the east. I agree, RNG paid services suck for aesthetics. I think RNG for non-aesthetics is okay (See Hearthstone). Paying for something you want because it's cool is fine. Payfor something you want because it's GOOD is another.

    Literally swapping assets and flooding online stores with identical copies of shitty games.
    Ah, yeah. Fuck that shit. I've had to send a couple C&D's for exactly that. it's basically the video game version of the Microsoft "Your computer is infected" scam
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  18. #278
    If there is a market, someone will sell it.
    Easy to blame those doing it, but remember that they only do that because someone is buying it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  19. #279
    Thats a nice question OP.

    First i was thinking that it's the "Im getting old" reason. But something is clearly happening to online/mmo games, since 2012 i would say.

    Microtransactions everywhere (compare 2012's gw2 from today's gw2...), DLCs everywhere (Destiny 2 needs at leats 1 or 2 DLC's to be as good as D1...).

    Games are overhyped and actually turn as complete disaster (wildstar, d3, nomansky...and maybe star citizen ?).

    EA acces bullshit beeing a scam.

    Could be a combo between normies and corporate greed. I dunno guys, today im playing pubg only. And hearthstone when i go for a long poop.
    Last edited by Iseeyou; 2017-09-24 at 11:07 AM.

  20. #280
    I'll tell you one thing that's happening; a friend and I are buying up pre-internet console games any time we find good deals.

    We'll be prepared to continue having the kind of gaming we enjoy in our autumn years, after the industry has turned to total shit in the West as it has in Japan, with the only games made/played being online-only "games as a service" or F2P, MTX-ridden smartphone garbage.

    We played Journey to Silius on the NES the other night. Sweet late-gen NES platform gunner with amazing music for the console.
    F2P: If you don't think it's worth my money, I don't think it's worth my time.

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