Homogenization and "unity" decimated the lore and immersiveness of this game

[Pawstruck]

I've done a total 180 on Garrosh Hellscream. He really was an interesting, appealing character. The Horde has been downhill since Garrosh died.

Here's the thing: Garrosh had values forgotten in the modern (real) world. Die-hard patriotism, conquest, superiority, and even ethnocentrism. None of these are evil per se. Unfortunately, Blizz (and many of their customers) are SJW's, and view these things as the ultimate evils in the world... so they had to make Garrosh go crazy and take his views to ridiculous hyperbolic extremes. This was utterly unnecessary. Plenty - in fact, I would argue all - societies have existed with Garrosh-ian values. We're the first generation to really reject them tout court.

The result?

UNITY, LOOOOOOVE, FOR AZEROTH!!!!

What a bunch of shit.

Unity qua unity is meaningless nothingness. It's a pedantic droll children's show with no real content. WoW used to be about playing a role, feeling like you were the character, identifying with the virtual-you. You loved what he loved; for the Horde! I remember that being almost an actual war cry amongst fans at Blizzcon. The war was fake, but the emotions were real. The Horde were an "ugly" band of misfits, originally the "underdogs" (even numerically, iirc), the anti-heroes. I felt excited and proud to wear my Horde T-shirt irl. Now not only are they barely utilized, they die such inglorious deaths as Zul'Jin's.

FOR THE... earth? What the fuck? Everybody join hands and sing Kumbaya?

My perspective is this: Identity is crafted from uniqueness. I used to believe that my Horde Druid really was better than a Night Elf. This gentle giant fought for the Horde first, not "for everything and all of existence at once." It makes for a catchy trailer, but a shitty game. (It also required escalation from swords and steampunk to LAZORZ AND SPACESHIPZ... but that's another topic).

Edit: I forgot how easily y'all were offended. I will reserve a room full of kittens and puppies at the nearest liberal arts campus immediately. More information to follow.

[Nihilan]

Like it or not companies pander the loudest and the most obnoxious minority. And there is no minority that is louder and more obnoxious, more venomous than the internet's militant SJW crowd.

The rabid anti-SJW people are little better tbh.

This thread will probably get locked. These sort of things are typically only allowed to persist in the cancerous Gen-OT forum.

[satimy]

Class homogenousness sucks

[Nurasu]

I've done a total 180 on Garrosh Hellscream. He really was an interesting, appealing character. The Horde has been downhill since Garrosh died.

Here's the thing: Garrosh had values forgotten in the modern (real) world. Die-hard patriotism, conquest, superiority, and even ethnocentrism. None of these are evil per se. Unfortunately, Blizz (and many of their customers) are SJW pansies, and view these things as the ultimate evils in the world... so they had to make Garrosh go crazy and take his views to ridiculous hyperbolic extremes. This was utterly unnecessary. Plenty - in fact, I would argue all - societies have existed with Garrosh-ian values. We're the first generation to really reject them tout court.

The result?

UNITY, LOOOOOOVE, FOR AZEROTH!!!!

What a bunch of shit.

Unity qua unity is meaningless nothingness. It's a pedantic droll children's show with no real content. WoW used to be about playing a role, feeling like you were the character, identifying with the virtual-you. You loved what he loved; for the Horde! I remember that being almost an actual war cry amongst fans at Blizzcon. The war was fake, but the emotions were real. The Horde were an "ugly" band of misfits, originally the "underdogs" (even numerically, iirc), the anti-heroes. I felt excited and proud to wear my Horde T-shirt irl. Now not only are they barely utilized, they die such inglorious deaths as Zul'Jin's.

FOR THE... earth? What the fuck? Everybody join hands and sing Kumbaya?

My perspective is this: Identity is crafted from uniqueness. I used to believe that my Horde Druid really was better than a Night Elf. This gentle giant fought for the Horde first, not "for everything and all of existence at once." It makes for a catchy trailer, but a shitty game. (It also required escalation from swords and steampunk to LAZORZ AND SPACESHIPZ... but that's another topic).

They started setting up Garrosh to be overcome by his own ego all the way back in Borean Tundra and ToC, so I don't think your reasoning is very sound. Also, WoD is what killed the lore of this game once and for all, not "unity".

[Primohastat]

Also, WoD is what killed the lore of this game once and for all, not "unity".

Hm, why do you think WoD was bad from lore point of view?

[Magistrate]

I've done a total 180 on Garrosh Hellscream. He really was an interesting, appealing character. The Horde has been downhill since Garrosh died.

Here's the thing: Garrosh had values forgotten in the modern (real) world. Die-hard patriotism, conquest, superiority, and even ethnocentrism. None of these are evil per se. Unfortunately, Blizz (and many of their customers) are SJW pansies, and view these things as the ultimate evils in the world... so they had to make Garrosh go crazy and take his views to ridiculous hyperbolic extremes. This was utterly unnecessary. Plenty - in fact, I would argue all - societies have existed with Garrosh-ian values. We're the first generation to really reject them tout court.

I think your general point is pretty accurate. But I think you're also mixing in your personal viewpoints which aren't really the narrative Blizzard should be preaching, either. I did honestly like that Garrosh at the end added texture and different values that cast everyone around him in different lights, and made the faction seemed more defined. That said, for what the Horde has been since WCII, some things would obviously not work for what the Horde is: a conglomerate of the "fringe" races that didn't fit in or were outright rejected by everyone else.

As you say, die-hard patriotism isn't bad. We have current lore characters that exhibit it for the Horde, they just aren't (unfortunately) front and center. However, Garrosh went to the negative extreme, into jingoism, showing another facet of this issue that is rarely discussed by the generation before us, or within the context of the game. His ethnocentrism turned into flagrant murderous racism, even among people he was supposed to lead. These are actually pretty logical (and common) trends for cultures to predominately treasure these values, and often lead to horrifying analogs in history.

Also, in practical terms, the separations that these kinds of ideals make can be nonconducive to the globalized defensive response necessary for, say, resisting the most powerful threats imaginable (Legion, Sha, Void, etc.).

However, that doesn't mean that patriotism is evil, or that valuing your people is bad. Lorthemar is pretty Horde-centric and loyal, and I'm sure Vol'jin would have been--in fact, his resistance to Garrosh was factually an embrace of traditional Horde values that go back to the RTS. He maintained the vision of the Horde that Thrall established, was willing to die for it (and almost did in Pandaria). His patriotism is without question. Sylvanus is incredibly patriotic for her own people--willing to risk everything to secure a future for them multiple times--even doing things others would find highly questionable and indefensible. Lorthemar and Sylvanus have, multiple times, taken the vanguard to battles that threatened their people and the Horde.

Also, sometimes the preservation of your own people is also a good thing. This is the paramount story of the Blood Elves, the Forsaken, to some degree the Orcs, and many others. Many races would not exist anymore had they not hunkered down, took fate as it was, and fought for their own as their lives depended on it.

I think what you're pointing out in a general sense is a symptom of "constant apocalypse syndrome." We spend so much dramatic story time fighting the Ultimate Bad Guy that we never get to see and explore the history, tension, and values that make the Alliance and the Horde different and unique--and the conflicts that have built up that should obviously lead to battles that seem to never actually happen.

I really do want a more chill expansion that puts world-ending catastrophe on the back burner and let's us explore the values and cultures each of our factions represent again.

[kary]

I think your general point is pretty accurate. But I think you're also mixing in your personal viewpoints which aren't really the narrative Blizzard should be preaching, either. I did honestly like that Garrosh at the end added texture and different values that cast everyone around him in different lights, and made the faction seemed more defined. That said, for what the Horde has been since WCII, some things would obviously not work for what the Horde is: a conglomerate of the "fringe" races that didn't fit in or were outright rejected by everyone else.

As you say, die-hard patriotism isn't bad. We have current lore characters that exhibit it for the Horde, they just aren't (unfortunately) front and center. However, Garrosh went to the negative extreme, into jingoism, showing another facet of this issue that is rarely discussed by the generation before us, or within the context of the game. His ethnocentrism turned into flagrant murderous racism, even among people he was supposed to lead. These are actually pretty logical (and common) trends for cultures to predominately treasure these values, and often lead to horrifying analogs in history.

Also, in practical terms, the separations that these kinds of ideals make can be nonconducive to the globalized defensive response necessary for, say, resisting the most powerful threats imaginable (Legion, Sha, Void, etc.).

However, that doesn't mean that patriotism is evil, or that valuing your people is bad. Lorthemar is pretty Horde-centric and loyal, and I'm sure Vol'jin would have been--in fact, his resistance to Garrosh was factually an embrace of traditional Horde values that go back to the RTS. He maintained the vision of the Horde that Thrall established, was willing to die for it (and almost did in Pandaria). His patriotism is without question. Sylvanus is incredibly patriotic for her own people--willing to risk everything to secure a future for them multiple times--even doing things others would find highly questionable and indefensible. Lorthemar and Sylvanus have, multiple times, taken the vanguard to battles that threatened their people and the Horde.

Also, sometimes the preservation of your own people is also a good thing. This is the paramount story of the Blood Elves, the Forsaken, to some degree the Orcs, and many others. Many races would not exist anymore had they not hunkered down, took fate as it was, and fought for their own as their lives depended on it.

I think what you're pointing out in a general sense is a symptom of "constant apocalypse syndrome." We spend so much dramatic story time fighting the Ultimate Bad Guy that we never get to see and explore the history, tension, and values that make the Alliance and the Horde different and unique--and the conflicts that have built up that should obviously lead to battles that seem to never actually happen.

I really do want a more chill expansion that puts world-ending catastrophe on the back burner and let's us explore the values and cultures each of our factions represent again.

Garrosh's horde is more wc2 horde than thrall's horde

[Magistrate]

Garrosh's horde is more wc2 horde than thrall's horde

I guess that's fair. I was more thinking in terms of the WC2 tradition of incorporating fringe races (Goblins, Ogres, etc.). To be fair, I'm not the best at Orc history things, that game was more about Orcs, and I usually mix them up. Garrosh was pretty anti-that, which was more the larger issue I guess I meant to get at.

[TheLimonTree]

That's a big leap to put the reason it went because SJW. Seriously, maybe they just wanted to explore the theme of a ruler gone too far?

[felrager]

I've done a total 180 on Garrosh Hellscream. He really was an interesting, appealing character. The Horde has been downhill since Garrosh died.

Here's the thing: Garrosh had values forgotten in the modern (real) world. Die-hard patriotism, conquest, superiority, and even ethnocentrism. None of these are evil per se. Unfortunately, Blizz (and many of their customers) are SJW pansies, and view these things as the ultimate evils in the world... so they had to make Garrosh go crazy and take his views to ridiculous hyperbolic extremes. This was utterly unnecessary. Plenty - in fact, I would argue all - societies have existed with Garrosh-ian values. We're the first generation to really reject them tout court.

The result?

UNITY, LOOOOOOVE, FOR AZEROTH!!!!

What a bunch of shit.

Unity qua unity is meaningless nothingness. It's a pedantic droll children's show with no real content. WoW used to be about playing a role, feeling like you were the character, identifying with the virtual-you. You loved what he loved; for the Horde! I remember that being almost an actual war cry amongst fans at Blizzcon. The war was fake, but the emotions were real. The Horde were an "ugly" band of misfits, originally the "underdogs" (even numerically, iirc), the anti-heroes. I felt excited and proud to wear my Horde T-shirt irl. Now not only are they barely utilized, they die such inglorious deaths as Zul'Jin's.

FOR THE... earth? What the fuck? Everybody join hands and sing Kumbaya?

My perspective is this: Identity is crafted from uniqueness. I used to believe that my Horde Druid really was better than a Night Elf. This gentle giant fought for the Horde first, not "for everything and all of existence at once." It makes for a catchy trailer, but a shitty game. (It also required escalation from swords and steampunk to LAZORZ AND SPACESHIPZ... but that's another topic).

Garrosh is basically Trump. Fanatical patriotism and nationalism for the sake of nationalism are horrible traits. Don't normalize it.

[Pawstruck]

Just so you know, the "SJW panzy" thing was a liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle purposely exaggerated. Just poking a bit of fun. Welcome to the internet, boys. The rest of what I was saying was pretty legitimate, though.

Garrosh is basically Trump. Fanatical patriotism and nationalism for the sake of nationalism are horrible traits. Don't normalize it.

It is only possible to make statements like these if one is incredibly uneducated. But that's the kind of parrot-talk I'd expect from the left, so I can't say I'm surprised.

By the way -- why I waste this on insufferable ignorance is a mystery -- nobody is patriotic "just because." People are patriotic because it's a natural, healthy instinct. Family, tribe, nation (in that order). Patriotic nationalism is either accurate or inaccurate, like any set of beliefs, based on the truthmaker (or lack thereof) of the culture itself. A North Korean patriot is a fool, while a U.S. patriot is not.

To get back on topic: Garrosh was a patriot of the highest caliber in the beginning. He believed that his people were the best, most specifically the orcs, and guess what? He made me believe it too, even though I played a Tauren. It's okay to have different, clashing opinions in a fantasy world. It gives the people texture and makes them interesting. That's the point I'm making in this thread.

[kary]

Just so you know, the "SJW panzy" thing was a liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle purposely exaggerated. Just poking a bit of fun. Welcome to the internet, boys. The rest of what I was saying was pretty legitimate, though.



It is only possible to make statements like these if one is incredibly uneducated. But that's the kind of parrot-talk I'd expect from the left, so I can't say I'm surprised.

By the way -- why I waste this on insufferable ignorance is a mystery -- nobody is patriotic "just because." People are patriotic because it's a natural, healthy instinct. Family, tribe, nation (in that order). Patriotic nationalism is either accurate or inaccurate, like any set of beliefs, based on the truthmaker (or lack thereof) of the culture itself. A North Korean patriot is a fool, while a U.S. patriot is not.

To get back on topic: Garrosh was a patriot of the highest caliber in the beginning. He believed that his people were the best, most specifically the orcs, and guess what? He made me believe it too, even though I played a Tauren. It's okay to have different, clashing opinions in a fantasy world. It gives the people texture and makes them interesting. That's the point I'm making in this thread.

found the nazi sympathizer

[Bigguy28]

Garrosh was awful from the start, completely mentally unstable. He spent all of BC crying into a fire about how pointless everything was then all the sudden next expansion he's all "Rawr me Orc! Me smash! Me hate Alliance even though I only heard about them like five days ago!" Garrosh was not someone who should have been put in any position that gave him any authority over anyone.

[nyc81991]

That's a big leap to put the reason it went because SJW. Seriously, maybe they just wanted to explore the theme of a ruler gone too far?

Yeah I agree but that wouldn't help the OP's cause of trying to turn a video game story discussion into a political issue where there is none.

[Sansnom]

Here's the thing: Garrosh had values forgotten in the modern (real) world. Die-hard patriotism,

Nope. I disagree. He was not patriotic. He was reshaping The Horde in his image. Which basically means Orcs above all else. He alienated other races in The Horde.

conquest, superiority, and even ethnocentrism. None of these are evil per se.

Tell that to the people who have been conquered and subjugated.

Unfortunately, Blizz (and many of their customers) are SJW pansies, and view these things as the ultimate evils in the world... so they had to make Garrosh go crazy and take his views to ridiculous hyperbolic extremes. This was utterly unnecessary.

So people disagree are SJW pansies? Conquering people is okay in your view?

Plenty - in fact, I would argue all - societies have existed with Garrosh-ian values. We're the first generation to really reject them tout court.

And you have never lived in those societies.

[Mirishka]

I've done a total 180 on Garrosh Hellscream. He really was an interesting, appealing character. The Horde has been downhill since Garrosh died.

Here's the thing: Garrosh had values forgotten in the modern (real) world. Die-hard patriotism, conquest, superiority, and even ethnocentrism. None of these are evil per se. Unfortunately, Blizz (and many of their customers) are SJW pansies, and view these things as the ultimate evils in the world... so they had to make Garrosh go crazy and take his views to ridiculous hyperbolic extremes. This was utterly unnecessary. Plenty - in fact, I would argue all - societies have existed with Garrosh-ian values. We're the first generation to really reject them tout court.

The result?

UNITY, LOOOOOOVE, FOR AZEROTH!!!!

What a bunch of shit.

Unity qua unity is meaningless nothingness. It's a pedantic droll children's show with no real content. WoW used to be about playing a role, feeling like you were the character, identifying with the virtual-you. You loved what he loved; for the Horde! I remember that being almost an actual war cry amongst fans at Blizzcon. The war was fake, but the emotions were real. The Horde were an "ugly" band of misfits, originally the "underdogs" (even numerically, iirc), the anti-heroes. I felt excited and proud to wear my Horde T-shirt irl. Now not only are they barely utilized, they die such inglorious deaths as Zul'Jin's.

FOR THE... earth? What the fuck? Everybody join hands and sing Kumbaya?

My perspective is this: Identity is crafted from uniqueness. I used to believe that my Horde Druid really was better than a Night Elf. This gentle giant fought for the Horde first, not "for everything and all of existence at once." It makes for a catchy trailer, but a shitty game. (It also required escalation from swords and steampunk to LAZORZ AND SPACESHIPZ... but that's another topic).

If you want a game that caters to your perspective, I suggest you get a job in the games industry and help create one. Because this isn't World of Youcraft.

How many of these stupid-ass 'sjw ruin things' topics must we endure?

- - - Updated - - -

Just so you know, the "SJW panzy" thing was a liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle purposely exaggerated. Just poking a bit of fun. Welcome to the internet, boys. The rest of what I was saying was pretty legitimate, though.

"So yeah part of my post was bullshit lolz, but some of it is LEGIT!"

[Queen of Hamsters]

Just another anti-SJW doing some hardcore SJWing...

[Fenixhart]

Blizzard's inconsistant writing that took second place to anything else is what fucks them over time and time again.

The stories are fired mostlly from the Hip. Nothing lasts, nothing is permanent, nothing makes logical sense. It's hard to get invested in the future of a world who's future is so transparently crafted at the behest at who's at the writing desk.

Nothing feels organic because nothing is.

Vol'jin did nothing for a year before getting axed.

Garrosh went in every direction possible even into places that contradicted his character. He should never have ended up worse than his father-he who had lived so long being reminded of his sins.

But that's exactly what he became.

His selling point to the Horde-back when he was going to be warchief-was handwaved away as "a mistake" despite it being the very thing that was supposed to get us to like him in the first place as a warchief and not as a petulant obstinate meathead getting put int he warchief chair.

The faction war poisoned the narrative, and Garrosh is one of it's many casualties.

[Marrilaife]

Oh, look, yet another thinly veiled "bring back faction war" thread, because we don't get these often enough... And I've definitely seen better iterations of it.

[zlygork]

I disagree, faction war is just ridiculous at this point. Has been since wc3 plot revolved around ending it.