1. #1

    Rare skills to see in League

    Most people you run into playing league, are those who seem to fire off every ability on cd to maybe land them on the enemy.

    They dont seem to understand that even "successful" uses of abilities are actually wasteful. Anub landing a stun or diving into a group for example. Except he did it while his team were not in position yet so the net sum was only the initial damage and an empty stun. He continues to spam his abilities every cd. An enemy escapes while his ability is on cd or because he is out of mana.

    Chromie fires off her combo, missing a moving target but is on CD when the 35% health guldan is sucking HP out of the tank.

    After having spoken to a friend I realize there are so few players in competitive who have ever thought of the concept of holding your shots, dps or utility, or with the option to be talented for additional functionality, to use it at the most oppurtune moment.

    I witness this a lot when playing arthas with Cc up the wazoo. I try to wait for their ability timers and cc the enemy accordingly most of the time my dps seems too hyper focused on one unlikely target and ignore the easy kill i create for them or are too busy using their abilities on cd to realize the oppurtunity (them hitting the target i create at this point seems to depend on chance).

    Even more confounding is something ive seen borh in ow and hots. People will out rihht ignore cced enemies and chase after free ones losing both.

    There are tanks with peel who waste their abilities such that when the stealthy or diver goes for a vulnerable team mate they cant do jack. As dva i always save my Q and W for such an occassion if the enemy comp is built as such.

    Randoms being randoms, I dont expect this to go away soon but to realize this concept is entirely to most players is confounding. I dont mean that in a snarky manner. Just esasperating that people who seem so very aware of the Meta, best comps and counters (macro decisions) are so utterly ignorant of the micro decisions that occur during actual gameplay.

  2. #2
    You are not alone in thinking this. Rant about people's perception of Johanna that relates to this topic incoming. I know she's getting reworked in a few days and I don't know how much her playstyle changes, but this is about how she has been playing since release, and how she probably will be playing next week if Blizzard has done a good enough job of keeping her playstyle intact. Feel free to disregard!

    I see a lot of people saying that she's easy to play, boring, and doesn't bring much to a fight. I agree that she's easy enough to start out with, but I don't agree with the rest. Boring? Maybe if you only look at her kit on a superficial level. Doesn't make much of a difference? N o o b s !

    Johanna requires that you can read the fight as it unfolds. All three of her base abilities sound simple enough but are incredibly powerful when used right. You need to know exactly when to use Punish, you need to know exactly when to use Condemn, you need to know exactly when to use Shield Glare. And Blessed Shield one of the most versatile heroics in the game, being used both offensively and defensive at equal value. And Iron Skin makes Johanna the most effective moment-to-moment tank in the game. You can of course fire them all off in quick succession upon entering a fight, just as Tenjen describes above, but that is a waste.

    People can learn all that. But what to do when you're not pressing buttons? Location, location, location. Johanna is an incredible body-blocker, one of the absolute best in the game. She can guarantee kills by just being where the enemy wants to go and not letting them. Walk around. Soak shots. Be an annoying prick. Tilt the enemy team that they can't get to your backline. And when they try, THEN use Condemn. Follow up with Punish. Blind any auto-attackers trying to be clever. When it comes right down to it, it is so simple. But it requires you to know the actual game to be properly effective in a fight. It requires you to know where to be, and when to be there. I feel most other tanks have some leeway because of their more directly control-oriented kits.

    So what does this have to do with anything? People not taking the time to learn. Not taking the time wanting to learn. I feel that Johanna should be everyone's first tank hero, exactly because she requires so much insight to work at her best. You are forced to learn if you want to play her properly. You are forced to learn body-blocking. You are forced to learn restraint. And I guess that's why I hardly see anyone else playing her. People don't feel they can be impactful with her because they don't know when to pick her or how to play her properly when they do. She's such an excellent anti-AA hero and can even be good against mages too if you build her properly.

    /rant

    It's really sad to see people so unwilling to learn the intricacies of the game when there are so many synergies and anti-synergies you can take advantage of to really turn the tide in your favor. There's this notion that Heroes is a simple game, and that if I don't do well, it's because everyone else is a moron, not because there can actually be stuff in the game that isn't as simple as they appear on the surface. Ironically, that attitude breeds even more actual morons.

    Awareness. Positioning. Timing. Restraint. If only people showed those qualities once in a while, I feel like the playerbase would end up being a much better place, both socially and skill-wise. How to get to that point? I have no idea. There needs to be some kind of incentive to learn. We're 3 years into the game at this point (2½ if you didn't participate in closed testing), and things haven't remarkably improved. People pick up certain things, such as picking Xul on Blackheart's Bay. But most don't know why and don't actually care to find out how. There needs to be a hardcore effort to changing the attitude of the playerbase, or I'm afraid that the quality of casual gaming in Heroes is only going to get worse.

    I try to teach when I play. I try to point out optimal heroes to draft and why. I try to point people in the right direction ingame, as much as is possible under such circumstances. A few times people listen, but mostly I get silence or snappy retorts in return. What can we few, the ones willing to teach others, actually do that teaching when the people needing it the most don't want to listen?

    Edit: That became a greater wall of text than anticipated. I apologize!
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  3. #3
    Titan Acidbaron's Avatar
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    When i'm playing KT and ETC is my take and there ability knocks people out of my AoE. I'm not amused.

    Too many people play this game as if it is a mmo, using everything on cd and expecting others to play as they do. Perhaps the cost of abilities is too low and increasing that cost would change this mindset but this of course does have a much greater impact on the game and some heroes.

  4. #4
    Such a good post; that OP should be displayed in HL/TL/unranked loading screen.


    nb. I'm coming from yet another traumatic experience. Playing aganst Hammer and ChoGall, I was delighted to see our team draft Azmodan and Leoric. The bad part: Azmo wouldn't leave the ChoGall lane, Leoric the Hammer lane; I kid you not. It ended quickly.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Too many people play this game as if it is a mmo
    YES! Thank you! I've lost so many games because people wanted to draft 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 ranged assassins as if we were headed into a WoW dungeon.
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  6. #6
    Isn't this all just a knock on effect from the quest system?

    I owl on CD until I get to 8 stacks and a pierce because then it stacks up much more rapidly. By all means tell me I'm doing it wrong, but I'd imagine that is why you're seeing this behaviour? (I don't know specifically if Anub'arak has a "Stun enemy heroes" quest but I know a lot of heroes do now...)
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  7. #7
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Isn't this all just a knock on effect from the quest system?

    I owl on CD until I get to 8 stacks and a pierce because then it stacks up much more rapidly. By all means tell me I'm doing it wrong, but I'd imagine that is why you're seeing this behaviour? (I don't know specifically if Anub'arak has a "Stun enemy heroes" quest but I know a lot of heroes do now...)
    Its a bit different in terms of utility vs effect.

    There are 2 types of abilities - Those that you want to use as often as possible, and those that you want to use for maximum effect.

    OP mentioned Chromie earlier. Yes, one of the best signs of a nub Chromie are those who utilize W for what essentially amounts to poke damage (Which can be considered any damage that does not result in a kill). If you didn't pick the CD reduction on W talent, that is 100% the wrong way to Chromie.

    On the other hand, given the 2.5 second CD and low mana cost of Q for Chromie, you will want to use it essentially on CD, providing that you can use it accurately to help with stacks.

    As Tyrande, you have 2 abilities you will want to use as often as possible - Owl, and Light of Elune. Owl has two purposes - Revealing an area, and dealing damage. If you don't need Owl to knock a Samuro/Valeera out of stealth, you will want to use it on CD for the damage and stacks.

    Light of Elune, being a cheap heal, will also need to be used as often as possible to heal. The main question is which target should recieve the healing at the time you can cast it?

    Lunar Flare and Huntress's Mark, however, should be saved for when you need to secure a kill. I've seen so many Tyrande's just go in and IMMEDIATELY use D on a target. Target then runs out for 4 seconds, and comes back in. Waste of a CD there. Granted, if you picked Ranger's Mark, and are at high stacks, then yes, use it on CD, since its basically just a constant 25% damage debuff up on one or more targets. Lunar Flare is similar - You will want to use it either to secure a kill, or peel a target.

    Some examples of Heroes, with abilities that should be used on CD, or not on CD.

    Arthas - Howling Blast should be used only to secure kills or peel. Death Coil should be used almost on CD to either poke or self-heal.

    ETC - Powerslide/Face Melt should be used to either peel, disrupt, or secure a kill. Guitar Solo should be used on CD, only slightly delayed to prolong trait.

    Muradin - Thunderclap should be used on CD, whenever you can hit their AA carries. Stormbolt should be used to either peel or secure a kill. Dwarf Toss should be used to either escape, or gap-close. NOT to initiate.

    Zarya - (I see so MANY bad Zarya's who use all their abilities on CD) - Zarya's Q should only be used when you are about to hit max charges, when you need to poke to cancel objective turn-in, or when you need to chase a fleeing target. I see so many Zarya's who just spam Q on a target right next to them, when Zarya's AA will deal FAR more damage, unless she is blinded or enemy target has a lot of phys armor.
    W should be used nearly on CD whenever Zarya is taking damage. E is difficult - In an active fight, you should hold on to it until the enemy team focuses on a target. In poking/laning, it should be used to soak damage and build up energy.

    It goes on and on. For Assassins, it can be iffy, depending on both CD of the ability, length of a fight, ect. For Valla, for instance, I would normally open up with a Q/W combo at the start of a team fight, and then hold off on the abilities until I need to use it to finish. For most mages, its all about unloading damage as accurately, as often, and as safe as possible - The only 2 exceptions are Gul'Dan (E is a very long CD, and is best to use on a fleeing target for maximum effect), and Chromie (Q provides all the poke she needs, so W should only be used to secure kills in team fights)

    But yes. If you are a tank, you should hold off on using your CCs until the right moment. Wading into the fight to immediately do a Q-W-E combo as Johanna is fucking retarded, and does almost nothing to help your team. Using E to blind their melee AA carry, then walking up to the AA carry and using condemn, then finally using Punish to slow the AA carry pretty much shuts that AA carry down for 4-5 seconds. Or, using Condemn to disrupt a fleeing enemy, punish to slow, and finally E to finish them off at 1% hp helps to secure a kill late game when the enemy team is backing off from an engagement.

    And, of course, if you have a CDR talent, it goes from using an ability wisely to using it on CD.
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  8. #8
    I was just asking if anyone felt the quest system was the cause of the "use it on CD" mentality that is being witnessed; not whether using it on CD was necessarily the best But thankyou for a thorough response

    Mostly I want to stack up owl as fast as possible because win or lose you feel like a badass securing "most of a team kill" when they are chasing you down and you can hit 3 of them at a time and essentially spam it over them and they don't react fast enough Terrible team play absolutely ~(disclaimer: I've come into a league thread when my experiences are QP only)~ but I've been lead to believe the quality of team play in rated isn't a significant amount better . . .
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  9. #9
    I haven't really though about this subject before, but now that you mention it I do fail in timings and more often than not (Much more) blow my load at the start. Characters such as jaia really suffer due to longer cds. I think I'll focus more on using skills at the right time rather than first time. Especially during lane where both teams are farming exp.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I was just asking if anyone felt the quest system was the cause of the "use it on CD" mentality that is being witnessed; not whether using it on CD was necessarily the best But thankyou for a thorough response
    For the most part it's not. The majority of people just like to play their heroes like it's WoW, where autoattacking is not a thing for many classes.ç

    It's even worse with Heroics. Varians using Charge -> Taunt before the enemy team has arrived, Horrify and Void Prison being dropped on a single person (there are occasions when it's worth it of course, but they are few and far between) etc.
    Last edited by Adramelch; 2017-09-29 at 11:54 AM.

  11. #11
    Old God Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I was just asking if anyone felt the quest system was the cause of the "use it on CD" mentality that is being witnessed; not whether using it on CD was necessarily the best But thankyou for a thorough response

    Mostly I want to stack up owl as fast as possible because win or lose you feel like a badass securing "most of a team kill" when they are chasing you down and you can hit 3 of them at a time and essentially spam it over them and they don't react fast enough Terrible team play absolutely ~(disclaimer: I've come into a league thread when my experiences are QP only)~ but I've been lead to believe the quality of team play in rated isn't a significant amount better . . .
    Usually quest system requires you to land your abilities, not throw them on CD. Throwing them on CD and reliably landing your abilities do not come together, you often need to hold your skillshots to get into position where you can land it reliably, or wait of point'n'click CC to come first

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapanth View Post
    I haven't really though about this subject before, but now that you mention it I do fail in timings and more often than not (Much more) blow my load at the start. Characters such as jaia really suffer due to longer cds. I think I'll focus more on using skills at the right time rather than first time. Especially during lane where both teams are farming exp.
    The worst offender is dropping blizzard ASAP, its painful to watch how Jaina hots one hero with one salvo of blizzard and proceeds dying like a scrub because he can't kill shit in next 13 seconds
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    YES! Thank you! I've lost so many games because people wanted to draft 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 ranged assassins as if we were headed into a WoW dungeon.
    Yes it's the sad truth , people are sheeps who follow simple rules ... I've won draft without healer before , but will people ever stop bickering about that in the entire game ? nope

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord jackofwind's Avatar
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    Mostly it's because generally the people who are good at MOBAs choose to play the other ones. HoTs doesn't do enough to reward individual ability and playmaking to entice many skilled players to play it.

    Sure, you see terrible people playing LoL who use their abilities all wrong, but you don't see them outside of B/S unless they're intentionally trolling. Even most high Silver players are capable of playing their champions correctly when it comes to landing combos and not wasting skills, they just fall very short in game management skills like map awareness, warding, counters, objective timing, wave management, and the list goes on and on. It's a testament to the generally poor playerbase of HoTs that the game can have removed so many of those specific skill-requiring elements and yet people are still unable to focus on their character's abilities properly (which was presumably the intended outcome).
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2017-10-04 at 11:19 PM.
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    Because fuck you, that's why.

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