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  1. #201
    ToS Kil'jaeden > HFC Archimonde > FL Ragnaros. Those are factually the 3 hardest bosses in WoW, the rest is just opinions.

  2. #202
    Hardest boss my long-extinct guild faced was Vaelastrasz. But this way back in the day, and we sucked.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyyrogue View Post
    Fun fact for you, but most classes, besides warrior tanks, could actually parse better numbers in blues and dungeon gear due to how shitty T1 & T2 were. No hit, mostly white stats, and his statement is actually fairly true. Rogues, locks, mages, and fury warriors could get a far better set of gear with 80% dungeon gear going into AQ, the biggest exception being weapons, and BWL trinkets, and the occasional piece of decent tier gear, like T2 rogue chest.
    You talking about DPS. Its fun statement because that guy assumed tanks and heals in blue gear would kill C'Thun...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorti View Post
    Mythic KJ, by far.
    Yea RNG king of raiding...

  4. #204
    Heroic Ragnaros and Mythic Siegemaster have racked up quite a few repair bills

  5. #205
    Also I forgot to say my opinion from experience hmm I'd say Mythic KJ or Mythic Archimonder. Spine of Deathwing 25hc comes after them in my opinion.

  6. #206
    There is fair hard, and there is unfair hard.
    C'thun was the latter.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  7. #207
    Deleted
    personally i like the idea of an "unkillable" boss put in each expansion and just left by itself (not necessarily an end raid boss, but just a single ultra hard boss), i think that would make WoW a lot more interesting, even if 0 or a handful of guilds manage to down him

  8. #208
    High Overlord Ambereldus's Avatar
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    Define "ultra hard".

    Do you mean so mechanically difficult that it requires absolutely perfect execution to kill, with one false step leading to near-instant raid wipes?
    Or do you mean a boss tuned to be numerically impossible to kill except in perfectly itemized end-game gear with above average RNG on crits/dodges/procs/etc?

    There's a big difference between the two, and overtuning will always override mechanical difficulty because of its binary nature. See M KJ and C'thun pre-nerfs. i.e. Can you beat the stat check? No? Then don't bother trying.

    ComputerNerd puts it nicely:
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    There is fair hard, and there is unfair hard.
    C'thun was the latter.

    OT: Mythic Siegecrafter was by far the hardest boss I've ever faced, with ridiculously intense mechanical and positional requirements. However, I don't have experience with many of the other bosses listed, so this is just my personal opinion. I don't think overtuning should be construed as "Hard", the way to beat a boss should be to figure out and master the puzzle, not to brute force the pieces together until you win.

  9. #209
    I would say Heroic FL Rag, Heroic LK with no buffs, and Yogg 0 lights (with only Ulduar gear) are the hardest I experienced.

  10. #210
    As everyone else said "Pre-Thun". He was crushing hardcore raids for weeks until someone submitted math to Blizz proving he was LITERALLY impossible to beat. So they nerfed him.

  11. #211
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    There is fair hard, and there is unfair hard.
    C'thun was the latter.
    Players fault though.

  12. #212
    The people calling Naxx40 4-horseman the most difficult fight, what kind of strategy did you guys use? Because strategy wise once we got set up it was just the same shit over and over again and was quite simple. Admittedly I only played a resto druid back then, but I would just follow my group around the room keeping everyone topped, watching out for the each new mechanic in each corner and go to the safe spot if my marks hadn't fallen off quite yet or when they cast the shield wall. Repeat, hoping tanks don't mess up the taunt swaps or a corner doesn't mess up the meteor or stacked too close for the chain lightning. Lag would kill a few on the void zones as they would 2 or 3-shot you but we'd have enough brezes to cover them usually. The healing was a little intense but not to the point where I'd call it the hardest fight ever.

    And the people saying C'thun pre-fix was killable obviously never even attempted him. P1 was tough but doable, and quite often we got to P2 with most of the raid up. But P2 the damage required to kill the tentacles before the next set came was always too much, and that's if none spawned in the stomach like they would sometimes do. Ion actually did the math on it and showed it was impossible on the WoW forums when he was still in EJ before he got hired by Blizz.

    Hardest boss I've killed is Archimonde Mythic, and that was even with a full raid with maxed rings unlike the top guilds, but I missed out on many of the very hard ones between then and now so I can't say for sure. Just starting M-KJ progression now, but with the NLC and nerfs out, its not the same fight Method beat, but it definitely seems a step above even Arch.

  13. #213
    Deleted
    set up is part of the difficulty tho- i.e getting higher gs

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by OneDayYouMay View Post
    set up is part of the difficulty tho- i.e getting higher gs
    I think some people would have a different opinion. Farming the proper gear, whether resistance gear from back in the day or farming for BIS legiondaries/perfect TF procs in the current expansion, is not "difficult" in my opinion, it's just time consuming.

    Yogg 0 lights is easy now, and was also much easier when you could start using TOC gear back in WOTLK. However, it was very difficult when Ulduar was the current raid. That being said, getting close to BIS gear back then was not THAT hard, especially by comparison. If your raid cleared Ulduar each week, you would have a raid geared enough to defeat the fight in a few weeks. It was the execution that was difficult. In Legion, simply clearing the current raid at the hardest difficulty is insufficient. In NH, for example, you were at a roadblock if your raid didn't collectively gain enough AP OUTSIDE OF RAIDING TIME to have the necessary HP to get through some fights. Getting that AP (or BIS legiondaries... or perfect TF procs) is in no way, shape, or form difficult. It's an artificial time block to pump up the "hours played" metric and give people who no life the game a tangible advantage they didn't have through much of the history of WOW. Now, the people who invest that time unsurprisingly want to believe that the game is "hard", and that less people than ever clear the hardest content because of it. The reality is that high level raiding is not any harder now than it ever was, it's easier... it's just that few people can overcome the necessary time investment outside of actual raiding required before you even face whichever boss you're currently trying to kill.

    No single instance speaks more to this change in the paradigm of high end raiding than the guild who realized that the best way to beat a difficult boss they were struggling with in TOV was to go farm more AP/Traits. Frankly, I don't think it's a very healthy high end raiding environment the way Blizzard handled Mythic for Legion.

  15. #215
    Naxx40 back in Vanilla was a guild killer, <insert any boss>.

  16. #216
    I only raided in vanilla and tbc at the highest level, and also a little bit in wotlk.

    What strikes me as odd here is that people dont consider the different classes point of view back in those days. One fight could be hard for one class, but easy for another.

    As an example of this: Nightbane had a fear cast time of 0.5 sec. As a horde tank (no dwarf priest for fear ward), without undead easy mode, you needed to stance dance and hit rage (or what it was called) not to get feared and not to wipe the entire raid. Archimonde also had a fear timer on 0.5 sec I believe. These were first versions of the fights, and back in those days we all had 0.2 sec latency. So enjoy the reaction time! Now ofcourse after awhile we started using the mousewheel to scroll and have a macro set up. That made it much easier and we never wiped again, but as a main tank, we still had to react in basically 0.3 sec!

    Magtheridon before first nerf was also a hard one. His adds could 2 shot your healers when you had 1 add left. And the cast time was also at 0.3 or 0.4 sec. Add latency of about 0.2 sec, and you get my drift. The add cast about 8 aoe shadowbolt volleys at this power level after the 2nd last add was dead. Have fun with your interrupts. My guild had all the adds dead a few times, but with too many people dead in order to kill him in phase 2. After that first nerf, we 1-shot him every time.

    Gruul was also insanely hard before the first nerf, and raid had to be even more buffed than at patchwerk in naxx, or at brutallus at sunwell. We had Gruul at 2% before that first nerf and 1-shot him the first day after he was nerfed for the first time (21st worldwide kill iirc).

    Naxx40 was not that hard. Thaddius was a breeze as opposed to what many other guilds claims. All there was to him was the random lag spikes. But that was not a mechanic, lol. Loatheb was simple apart from the mentionned stars alignments required on the world buffs needed.

    4h was easy to kill with enough tanks, and I actually tanked him on my rerolled alliance tank without 4set t3. I just used aoe taunt once or twice... You could also do him with 6 tanks if you had the trinket from the water monster boss in ZG.

    I also killed C'Thun in blues as lvl 59 and we were 31 in raid, so a shout out to that trolling there actually. He gave 72xp (rested) This was before the nax patch, but ofcourse he had already been nerfed by then. Still, this is the version we will get in the classic wow, and on nostalrius.

    Gothic or Patchwerk may have been the two hardest fights in vanilla.

    Tbc had in average a higher difficulty. M'uru was to me very simple as a tank. But as we just wiped on him, and I was sick of guild drama and left the guild with a middle finger, I dont know how hard he was for the other classes. Something wiped us, but as mentionned, to me (tab tanking the adds and interrupting shit was simple. I just had to catch them and not break sheep. Other tanks I hear struggled because they didnt react fast enough though (adds sprinting past you at 200mph). I think the main reason why this fight was seen as the hardest was due to how it tested the largest amount of players at the same time in one fight. But as a tank, it was easy. Much easier than previously mentionned fights here. Even Nefarion was harder as a main tank...

    There was alot of gimmicks in vanilla and tbc. Most guild still don't have a clue regarding what 'the awareness list' was. Even top guilds like Nihilum and other top 5 guilds had no clue. It was a list every boss made when the fight started. Proximity based unless someone added threat in one form or another. And at every aggro reset (vanilla had many of these, and some in tbc (al'ar etc), the boss went back to his awareness list when choosing the new target. So my guild, due to testing this and figuring it out, breezed through tons of content... especially also since non-melee range needed 130% threat to pull aggro, and melee range needed 110%, a single taunt by a member higher up on the awareness list also gave him 100% threat (5 minutes into the fight and the boss would stick like glue as getting the extra 10% was hard) without even having done more than the initial poke before the taunt. But we had to figure these things out ofcourse. Today there are no secrets like this.

    You could also los many bosses back then. So Sapphiron did not introduce this. BWL especially had alot of los cheesing fights...

    But the main difference as far as I can tell from vanilla/tbc as a tank, was threat. Everything was about threat. Revenge was king, but you also needed sunder for more damage (later devastate), and shield slam was also more threat than sunder. And every high threat skill was single target. Wotlk cheesed this so badly this entire tanking 3rd part of raiding, was gimped beyond repair. And it still is.


    From watching recent youtube videos of boss fights from the last few expansions I also have yet to see a single hard dmg spike on the main tank. Making me think the healers are having a breeze nowadays, and everything is like the easiest boss in vanilla and tbc: Grobbulus. He was a 0.1/1000 in difficulty level. Even if recent fights have 3 or 4 different Grobbulus difficulty mechanics, one should be able to sleepwalk through it.

    Spikes/reaction time/threat management/gear check sums up pre-wotlk raiding. Post-tbc raiding seems easier. Thats all. Maybe mythic archimonde like some have mentionned is hard as a raid, but not as an individual player. It looks easy...
    Last edited by Bannorr; 2018-09-03 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Spelling errors fixed and some confusion avoided

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