Will the Holinkoaster Effect end next xpac?

[shaunika123]

pvp was systematically ruined by prioritizing balance and "esports lul" over fun

it's the reason the mobility arms race came into existence
it's the reason immortal healers came into existence
it's the reason infinite mana came into existence and then consequently dampening which wasnt a problem until mana wasnt a problem anymore.

killing any comp that wasnt 2dps healer, was also a problem
killing 2v2 was a huge problem
killing duels was another huge problem

giving every single class healing was another problem
giving every class so many defensive and offensive cooldowns was another problem

and i could go on.

pvp used to be simple and yet you always knew who was the better player, now it boils down to smashing offensive cooldowns into defensive cooldowns until finally one party doesnt have any more and drops in a second.



too much mobility, too little casting required, too much durability and yet too much burst damage is what made pvp super boring
throwing in layers upon layers of overcomplications like templates, pvp talents and such only adds to the problems

not to mention how all the ability pruning just made classes way more binary and bland to play

[Duckypoo]

templates have absolutely nothing to do with how a spec plays and how much utility/playstyle choices a spec has available for the player to make, that is class design

templates exist to control how much damage/healing different specs do, and stop specs having options in gearing

Correct, and that can be used to negate changes that screw over PvP.

[cparle87]

Even casual PvErs can get new and cool titles and mounts every new patch and so onwards with raiding. in casual PvP you not only don't get gear (or, the gear you get is shit) but you don't get to have new cool stuff every now and then.

You don't like the prestige pets, mounts, toys, and titles? Or do you not count them because you can get them from doing mostly pvp-free world quests?

[Kagthul]

That ol' meanie "Kagthul the Meme Buster". Let's hope the mongoloid fanboys and Blizz dicksuckers never get their hands on him or they'll burn him at the stake at the next Blizzcon.

Now that I think it about it though, that would be a lot more exciting to watch than the 3v3 tourneys, eh?

Sorry Kag, I'm throwing in with the enemy...your ass is toast! D:

Like i'd ever go to Blizzcon as an attendee. You'd have to pay me to go there. (Literally, like, i'd have to be there for work.)

[Charge me Doctor]

Even casual PvErs can get new and cool titles and mounts every new patch and so onwards with raiding. in casual PvP you not only don't get gear (or, the gear you get is shit) but you don't get to have new cool stuff every now and then.

It happens only because in PvE E part gets easier with time, while in PvP there is no way to "nerf" players skill. To some extent specs being nerfed play to that, but lets leave rerolling fotm characters from the discussion

[Deleted]

just nerf the burst and the infinite gap control of the usual retard class like war dh monk pala etc if you dont play mongo fotm class is nope

[Dizzeeyooo]

Correct, and that can be used to negate changes that screw over PvP.

in what way? half a specs spells are pruned, that spec now spams two buttons to deal damage and has nothing else to do, so lets use the template system to ... make the spec deal more damage/less damage, because that will absolutely fix the problem of the spec being boring as fuck to play in pvp

[Kralljin]

in what way? half a specs spells are pruned, that spec now spams two buttons to deal damage and has nothing else to do,

A majority of specs have been using less damage buttons in BC / Wotlk.

Really, a lot of damage buttons does not equal somehow interesting and compelling gameplay for the majority, especially in PvP.

[Dizzeeyooo]

A majority of specs have been using less damage buttons in BC / Wotlk.

Really, a lot of damage buttons does not equal somehow interesting and compelling gameplay for the majority, especially in PvP.

in what way? half a specs spells are pruned, that spec now spams two buttons to deal damage and has nothing else to do

bolded the part of the quote you should actually have been paying attention to

[dlhak]

First let's define "Holinkoaster effect": Activision bought blizzard and Holinka assumed the PvP team back at cata, and that marked the downfall of WoW PvP as we know. a lot of bad changes happened over and over and despite a few people claiming "it wasnt holinka, it was decisions from the inside" his leaving may cause a future turn of events for the next expansion.

A lista of things included in the Holinkoaster effect:

• "Elitization" of PvP - removing 2v2 and 5v5, making it so only PvP mounts would remain character-bound (instead of account bound) and other changes based on "elitizing" the game were done since cata. The aim here was to make WoW PvP feel more about the competition and less about the experience itself, which diminished the interest of players on PvP over the years up until the moment that barely anyone wants to do it nowadays.
• "Casual PvP is only for fun" - Removing rewards and incentive for normal players to do random battlegrounds and such is also a big issue here. Despite there being prestige progress (which still exists for rated), there is no progression or anything on doing Casual PvP such as arena skirmishes and random BGs, which caused the player base to stop doing random BGs.
• "PvP Templates" - Having everyone being equal on PvP isn't really a bad thing, but when you remove customization entirely from the game and everyone is playing a game that is even less customizable than MOBAs things become a problem.
• "PvP talents" - this one is a personal issue that I have. I kinda hated having PvP talents instead of a customizable normal talent, because it pushed players even further away from PvP as the rotations and gameplay from a few classes change completely from PvP to PvE with different abilities and such.
• "No new rewards added to rated PvP, ever" - This is also another issue, since Holinka's (Or Whoever was in real charge) aim was to have PvP be only about the competition and not about the gear, and casual PvP being just about the fun, they also didn't care about giving PvPers any other real reward besides the "Gladiator" achievement for the top 0.5% and a mount they can't even use on their alts. This meant that PvP players lost the interest in doing rated PvP as there was no reward on doing so while the PvE rewards were distributed across the board with different mounts, transmogs and titles being constantly added to the game.

All these changes, I think, pushed players away from PvP and all started with mister Holinka.
So I call for your opinion: Now that he is gone, will we have a new light on PvP for the next expansion? Can a new light come even before that?

PvP is One feature of World of Warcraft, it's not the game itself. Besides you invented a term and self explain!ed it. good.

[Kralljin]

bolded the part of the quote you should actually have been paying attention to

That doesn't change the fact that "spamming two buttons to deal damage" is a straight out lie.

The majority of specs also still has crucial utility / CC skills, the only ones removed were skills that have added into the game later (Throwdown for example), some removed ones are even available via PvP Talents.

I honestly doubt that most people find pvp boring because there are so few buttons to press, because that's simply not true.

[Dizzeeyooo]

That doesn't change the fact that "spamming two buttons to deal damage" a straight out lie.

The majority of specs also still has crucial utility / CC skills, the only ones removed were skills that have added into the game later (Throwdown for example), some removed ones are even available via PvP Talents.

I honestly doubt that most people find pvp boring because there are so few buttons to press, because that's simply not true.

play a mage and then say this with a straight face

[Kralljin]

play a mage and then say this with a straight face

What skills did Mage exactly lose outside of Deep Freeze and other skills that only saw fringe use?

Leaving even that aside, it's not like that Mage now requires no skill at all to play, which i doubt would even affect the majority of players because, let's be honest, aren't even that good.

[Deleted]

What I hated about Legion pvp is Blizzard preached about how they are making pvp easy to access but instead they made it a lot harder to get into pvp for casuals, alts and new players. Also reward from pvp sucked ass, in new honor system you get the same reward over and over again just with different color. In rated pvp rngfest in gear reward was horrifying, I have played the entire first season and got hundreds of armor pieces but never the helm. Also if pve gear is good in pvp then why can't pvp gear be at least decent in pve? Why put so much versatility in gear? AP grind didn't help pvp either.

For me I could live with everything else as long as they add conquest point and gear vendors back. Make it so that we can buy gear token piece(helm, leg, chest etc.) from vendor for conquest point and the token piece would reward a gear whose ilvl would be based on player rank. If we can some how change the secondary stats for pve (reforge) that would be awesome.

[Aurelious]

TL;DR. - OP is correct, Dude who said PVP shouldn't give rewards is wrong. RPGs are about rewards and character growth. If you put pvp in an RPG, it needs to adhere to that.

I agree with the original poster.

I disagree whole-heartedly with this ......... person. For lack of using the words I'd like.

no pvp rewards added ever - again you need to check your philosophy on why you pvp and then come back. Do you play tennis/golf/basketball/baseball/soccer/ etc to get a fancy jersey or title or trophy or do you play for the satisfaction of winning?

I don't play any of those things for the satisfaction of winning. I'm glad that You get some jolly feel goodness out of beating other people. But that's you, first off. Second. You're comparing apples to gravel. You're not even remotely close to making an adequate analogy.

Your analogy would be more accurate if you said "I don't work at McDonald's for the money, I'm only there to feel good when I sell more burgers than the other guy." Because this game Requires that you build a character. That you have gear. That you do all the work to even get to max level. I can walk onto a tennis court with Johnny Mc. and play for the joy of playing. I don't have to go kill someone to get a +3 agility racket. And yes, they did take gear out of pvp, but ilvl scaling still exists. Same principle. Warcraft pvp is WITHIN a mmo...wait for it. R. P. G. Lack of rewards doesn't fit into that universal ideology. If you Orc wakes up in the morning. And goes and kills 5000 demons because he wants the reward for it. Or Saves a Panda from a cage Every Freakin day because he wants the other pandas to like him more. He finds some friends and risks life and limb to go into an enemy stronghold in hopes of killing them and stealing stuff from their dead bodies. Next day he picks flowers and rocks all day long so that he can make a little money. Next day. Eh. I believe I'll work hard all day fighting other people for absolutely no reward what-so-ever. NO. What you're talking about is and ENTIRELY different game system. One like Overwatch. When I play OW on non-comp I don't care at all if I win/lose. I play that for fun. When I play on comp. I want to win. Because on QP there's no reward (other than 500xp) so winning doesn't matter. It's just fun. In comp there IS a reward, in a game that has little by way of a rewards system and Is for the joy of combat and pvp.

But Let me restate that. Warcraft = RPG = REWARDS or it isn't worth the average players time. Overwatch = Not-rpg = Rewards aren't really important = play for fun and feel goods and winning and blah blah blah cause the time you spent isn't about Furthering a character that you've spent countless years of your life building and bettering and growing. Nope. Those characters are just there for the taking. You can play dress up and teach them nice graffiti but you'll never change them. (Blizzard will but you won't) They aren't "Yours", they're just heroes that you're controlling. In warcraft, the character is You. The time you put in should feel meaningful. And the joy of winning just doesn't make a character better in any way. Sorry.

[Deleted]

"Casual PvP is only for fun" - Removing rewards and incentive for normal players to do random battlegrounds

That is a load of nonsense. There are rewards and casual players are playing more than they used to.

What does the old gear system do but make casuals have a terrible grinding experience where they get 2 shot? I PvP'ed on this expansion alot more than any other just cause of that.

[Zyky]

Just gonna break it down into sections.

"Elitization" of PvP - removing 2v2 and 5v5, making it so only PvP mounts would remain character-bound (instead of account bound) and other changes based on "elitizing" the game were done since cata. The aim here was to make WoW PvP feel more about the competition and less about the experience itself, which diminished the interest of players on PvP over the years up until the moment that barely anyone wants to do it nowadays.

2v2 is still in the game, PvP mounts have been character bound since BEFORE Holinka. What diminished the value of PvP for a lot of players is the attitudes in the higher brackets. People trying to make a quick real money(which is illegal btw) caused a lot of what you're attempting to blame on a single person.

"Casual PvP is only for fun" - Removing rewards and incentive for normal players to do random battlegrounds and such is also a big issue here. Despite there being prestige progress (which still exists for rated), there is no progression or anything on doing Casual PvP such as arena skirmishes and random BGs, which caused the player base to stop doing random BGs.

Not sure what lies your spouting here because que times are under a minute for Alliance and under 2 minutes for Horde. People are obviously doing random bgs and there are certainly rewards from doing it, you pretty much get a piece of gear every win and a piece every 2-4 losses. This is a far better system where it would take 3-4 hours just to get a single piece of gear like in MoP. You claim no that there's no progression, yet in the same sentence mention prestige, that's a progression system lmao.

"PvP Templates" - Having everyone being equal on PvP isn't really a bad thing, but when you remove customization entirely from the game and everyone is playing a game that is even less customizable than MOBAs things become a problem.

This is something many PvPers have been asking for FOR YEARS. People were tired of gear = skill and now its finally skill > gear. The only people complaining about this are the terrible PvEers who have gear and can't kill anyone outside of world content or the terrible PvPers who relied on gear to get them their pitiful 1700 rating.

"PvP talents" - this one is a personal issue that I have. I kinda hated having PvP talents instead of a customizable normal talent, because it pushed players even further away from PvP as the rotations and gameplay from a few classes change completely from PvP to PvE with different abilities and such.

News flash, PvP and PvE are very different. PvP requires adaptation to adjust to what you're playing against. PvP talents is a step in the right direction because it finally enables them to tune talents for PvP without screwing over PvE. If you're trying to use a "rotation" in PvP you must not be very good at PvP.

"No new rewards added to rated PvP, ever" - This is also another issue, since Holinka's (Or Whoever was in real charge) aim was to have PvP be only about the competition and not about the gear, and casual PvP being just about the fun, they also didn't care about giving PvPers any other real reward besides the "Gladiator" achievement for the top 0.5% and a mount they can't even use on their alts. This meant that PvP players lost the interest in doing rated PvP as there was no reward on doing so while the PvE rewards were distributed across the board with different mounts, transmogs and titles being constantly added to the game.

As I mentioned before PvP isn't losing activity. Activity is higher than it's been in the last 3 years, for reasons including, but not limited to, seasons not lasting 20 weeks and PvP finally relying on skill > gear. You keep mentioning the mounts, but its been like that since BC and Holinka wasn't the PvP lead back then. You want to name the things PvEers get, then lets correct your "PvPers get nothing" portion. 2k gets you access to the elite gear, at the end of the season you can buy the full transmog. 2.2k gets you a special weapon enchant. 2.4k gets you a season tabard. Among rated PvP giving you gear that obliterates for 15 PvP tokens which you can use 75 at a time to purchase a token of your choosing. PvEers get nothing of the sorts to DE/Obliterate raid/dungeon gear at an attempt to roll something better.

[Dizzeeyooo]

As I mentioned before PvP isn't losing activity. Activity is higher than it's been in the last 3 years

Season 14 (MoP)
http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...fs/archive/s14
1164 US gladiator spots > 232,800 people actively playing arena in US

Season 15 (MoP)
http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...fs/archive/s15
1659 US gladiator spots > 331,800 people actively playing arena in US

Warlords Season 1
http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...ve/warlords-s1
1302 US gladiator spots > 260,400 people actively playing arena in US

Warlords Season 3
http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-t...ve/warlords-s3
1213 US gladiator spots > 242,600 people actively playing arena in US

Legion Season 3
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20755686108
128 US Alliance gladiator spots + 168 Horde gladiator spots > 296 total US gladiator spots > 59,200 people actively playing arena in US

sure looks like pvp is not losing activity exDee

[Flaks]

I just hope they scrap the stupid honor talents and add them to baseline abilities or talents like they used to be. I used to love pvp but removing major utility from my base toolkit to add back in for a very specific scenario is obnoxious.

[Toppy]

If they would just ditch the stupid "PvP needs to be character bound" bullshit and give some half decent casual play rewards that would fix most issues imo.

They may have added a lot in Legion but none of it was that good. PvP talents are wasted and honor is character bound which is about the worst move imaginable. All the while there is less reason to do PvP now, due to nerfed rewards, than any other time in WoW's life.