Will the Holinkoaster Effect end next xpac?

[Osmeric]

Again : how is a 1500 conquest cap per week different from getting a (random, granted...) piece of gear from 2s AND 3s a week ?

As I just explained to you, the people I was talking about didn't do arena.

Maybe you're asking WHY they didn't do arena? Not sure, but it is clear a large group of players did not like rated PvP.

[Philomene]

Most casual PvPers never did rated PvP, except perhaps in BC when team ratings could be cheesed. When personal ratings came out in Wrath participation plunged.

In WoD, you could get a full set of Conquest gear without setting foot in rated PvP.

Full conquest gear was like 24-25K Conquest points, which was like more than 14 weeks with a 1700 CP cap to get all geared if you didn't get extra parts at Ashran or whatever worldboss back then, only to get a 710 set. 710 set that had worse tier bonuses, trash PvP trinkets, probably bad stat itemization, etc. Pretty sure it would take less than 14 weeks to get some 710 superior gear in HFC.

I mean, I know some people only played PvP to get gear. But saying that you can only gear trash gear from PvP now is wrong. As a complete casual you can get gear from Echoes only from doing random battlegrounds (and I don't think it's really slower than winning 6 WSG to get a washed-up chest) + one piece from 2s + one piece from 3s. Since I didn't queue for any RBGs this expansion I don't know if they still reward a piece every week. The only problem is that now the reward is random.

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As I just explained to you, the people I was talking about didn't do arena.

Maybe you're asking WHY they didn't do arena? Not sure, but it is clear a large group of players did not like rated PvP.

Weird cause 2s have always been super popular and on every server I've been I've seen a shitload of people lf some dude to cap 2s with.

Else, if you didn't do arena, 50 then 75 CP per win, 150 first win of the day for 1700 CP, that's 7 daily wins + 9 wins at best. So that's roughly 30 battlegrounds to queue for. 16 wins in Legion can be enough to get a gear token if you're lucky enough on what you're dropping.

[Osmeric]

Else, if you didn't do arena, 50 then 75 CP per win, 150 first win of the day for 1700 CP, that's 7 daily wins + 9 wins at best. So that's roughly 30 battlegrounds to queue for. 16 wins in Legion can be enough to get a gear token if you're lucky enough on what you're dropping.

Speaking of WoD, one would just do Ashran, which yielded CP faster than that. If one just had to do unrated BGs then you're right, the reward rate would be a problem. I think in WoD Ashran depressed unrated BG participation.

The other side of this is that PvE rewards have been beefed up in Legion. It's always possible to get an upgrade from fairly easy PvE content. PvP content has to compete with this, and comes up lacking.

[Philomene]

Tbh on the gear reward problem I think that the fact that you can get quite decent gear from just being afk in a WQ group or invasion is the real reason why people can feel unrewarded in PvP. "Back in the days", you would get decent gear in PvP - even if it took longer than in PvE - but it was really only outshined by raid gear. Now, unless you're getting higher ratings, you get base 905 item level gear while Argus rewards base 910, with a weekly shot to 930.

A new season is coming in a couple of weeks, maybe the season 6 gear will get its item level inflated to finally higher than Argunite tokens.

[Osmeric]

A new season is coming in a couple of weeks, maybe the season 6 gear will get its item level inflated to finally higher than Argunite tokens.

Antorus LFR will be 915, Normal will be 930.

Anyway, my raiding main is like 936 right now. Casual PvP is utterly useless for it.

[iperson]

Not everyone like the same stuff in the game, also thinking that you need some meta stuff to waste 15 minutes in a game pillar humping means you're not really interested in arenas.

[Philomene]

Well that’s not really how retail arena is for 99% of the playerbase

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Almost sure that it doesn't, gonna check tonight.

Looks like I was wrong, apologies

[potis]

Players are slowing learning WoW isnt really a pvp game. They would rather focus on overwatch/hearthstone for that.

WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.

This post was answered on its first actual post , surprising!

People arent PvPing because it doesnt provide gear upgrades, its not much to grasp.

The people that PvP to PvP, dont cry on mmo-champion about it.

The people that want to pretend they are better than others by overgearing them or playing FOTM are crying on mmo-champion.

[JacobusRex]

PVP died when blizz chose to make PVP a rope climb instead of a battlefield to conquer. Which basically translates to FotM Classes and Builds, objective-only PVP matches, and lack of ongoing support for PVP. What I mean by that last one is that they haven't really made NEW stuff to do in PVP aside from maps for matches. Ever.

You have a TON of space to play with in the world, no world pvp? Why? Expansions where we go to new continents on Azeroth? No ship-to-ship PVP maps or naval world pvp to speak of. But hey, Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin, Alterac Valley, Strand of the Ancients, Gilneas Coast?, Isle of Conquest, and the ghost towns of Trashran, Wintergrasp and Tol Barad are still there for us to play... over and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...

[Whatever Dude]

PvP is unpopular because the WOW PvP devs blow chunks and are too stupid to understand how to design PvP for an MMO. Instead they look to non-MMO games on how to proceed, which is a mistake. It's been 13 years and World PvP, despite having mass potential, has had that potential squandered and shat all over by incompeteny dumbfucks.

[Mafic]

Full conquest gear was like 24-25K Conquest points, which was like more than 14 weeks with a 1700 CP cap to get all geared if you didn't get extra parts at Ashran or whatever worldboss back then, only to get a 710 set. 710 set that had worse tier bonuses, trash PvP trinkets, probably bad stat itemization, etc. Pretty sure it would take less than 14 weeks to get some 710 superior gear in HFC.

I mean, I know some people only played PvP to get gear. But saying that you can only gear trash gear from PvP now is wrong. As a complete casual you can get gear from Echoes only from doing random battlegrounds (and I don't think it's really slower than winning 6 WSG to get a washed-up chest) + one piece from 2s + one piece from 3s. Since I didn't queue for any RBGs this expansion I don't know if they still reward a piece every week. The only problem is that now the reward is random.
.

It didn't take 14 weeks to fully gear in Conquest gear. The gladiator sanctum in garrisons yielded honor and conquest points for bones turned in. And with enough garrison resources (eg 1000) you could auto complete work orders.

Next, 710 HFC gear wasn't faster to obtain.

Currently the PVP gear you obtain is trash. Echoes of battle is 1 for combatants and 15 for gladiator. In other words you are looking at more than 14 weeks to obtain full gladiator gear via echoes of battle.

And the 905 gladiator gear is inferior to the Argus gear 910. And then there is mythic + gear that is 930+ and then the invasion points on Argus which are all 930 or higher.

[Philomene]

It didn't take 14 weeks to fully gear in Conquest gear. The gladiator sanctum in garrisons yielded honor and conquest points for bones turned in. And with enough garrison resources (eg 1000) you could auto complete work orders.

So ? You were still capped to 1700.

Next, 710 HFC gear wasn't faster to obtain.

Well, that's your point of view, S3 was out when HFC was largely farmed in heroic mode and needed some extra reward (= Grove mount) for people to stay on the game or just come back for those who couldn't ride the Mythic train.

Currently the PVP gear you obtain is trash. Echoes of battle is 1 for combatants and 15 for gladiator. In other words you are looking at more than 14 weeks to obtain full gladiator gear via echoes of battle.

+ 2 weekly arena rewards with higher item level with rating. I understand that if you're 1500 you basically don't feel a difference. Since there is no cap, you can farm Echoes as much as you want, which was not the case with Conquest points. I agree it would be smarter to farm Argunite but there's a soft cap on it.

And the 905 gladiator gear is inferior to the Argus gear 910. And then there is mythic + gear that is 930+ and then the invasion points on Argus which are all 930 or higher.

Doesn't change the fact that people still get more rewards than before. Before Legion you wouldn't get mounts and pets from casual - and don't get me started on the 2000 HP mounts that have been there forever. With Season 6 incoming, we might see an increase in item levels on the gear, that would finally match or go higher than Argus items.

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This post was answered on its first actual post , surprising!

People arent PvPing because it doesnt provide gear upgrades, its not much to grasp.

The people that PvP to PvP, dont cry on mmo-champion about it.

The people that want to pretend they are better than others by overgearing them or playing FOTM are crying on mmo-champion.

Well I'm starting to think that people are complaining here because they can't really outgear and wreck people in greens while wearing purples obtained from 1300 arenas

[potis]

Well I'm starting to think that people are complaining here because they can't really outgear and wreck people in greens while wearing purples obtained from 1300 arenas

Pretty much.

All the complainers i know personally end up at the same result "I cant farm no-life levels to be better than the others and pretend i am good, but now that i am forced to play better than the rest and i cant, i blame the devs and "PvP is bad now""

While i have other friends that just subbed after 5 years to do some arena, havent heard them complain in 2-3 weeks of doing them, they just want to PVP.

[Osmeric]

Pretty much.

All the complainers i know personally end up at the same result "I cant farm no-life levels to be better than the others and pretend i am good, but now that i am forced to play better than the rest and i cant, i blame the devs and "PvP is bad now""

The thing is, this doesn't matter. Changes in player satisfaction can never be excused by blaming the players.

[potis]

The thing is, this doesn't matter. Changes in player satisfaction can never be excused by blaming the players.

How come? I havent heard the people that have been dominating the Arena scene complain as much as the average 1500 ever since Arena got more relevant after Wotlk, since TBC was still an infant joke.

Reality stands that most complains are simply from the fact people dont want to PvP, they want to outgear other players to cover for their lack of skill.

Then you have MoP complains..Wahh mythic raiders are destroying me, wahhh.

or Wotlk complains, wahh, SHADOWMOURNE OP.

or any expansion -insert complain here- when it all comes down to "WAHH, THE BETTER GEARED PLAYERS ARE DESTROYING ME", they removed that, and you people still complain

Then again, PvP in a MMO can never be balanced, not sure why people keep crying, as the first poster said and as i have been repeating since 2005 when the game was fresh.

WoW is all about PvE, its the road of gear chase, just because they add different things to do meanwhile, like pet battles, PvP or achievement collecting its all irrelevant in the end because its not what the game is about.

WoW is like a Road, you are supposed to go from City A to City B, just because you decide to never go to City B and go to Village PvP and stay there, which is a sideroad right in the middle in between City A and City B, thats your problem.

[Osmeric]

How come?

Because players are the ones spending the money. Responsibility flows in the direction of the money. The devs' job is to make them happy. The devs cannot say "our game was great, but the customers are defective".

Understand I'm taking about aggregate player satisfaction, not individual. The devs can't please everyone, but it is their job -- what they are paid to do -- to make the customers in aggregate happy so they keep sending Blizzard money.

It is not the players' responsibilities to do a single thing they don't want to do. If a player decides "I'd be happier not doing activity X, and if that blocks me stop playing" they have an absolute, inalienable right to do that. The game design will have failed them as a product. If the game design fails enough players, it fails, period.

A consequence of all this is that game design is not under the control of designers. They must bow to the overall desires of the player population. The consequences are swift and brutal if they do not.

[potis]

Because players are the ones spending the money. Responsibility flows in the direction of the money. The devs' job is to make them happy. The devs cannot say "our game was great, but the customers are defective".

Understand I'm taking about aggregate player satisfaction, not individual. The devs can't please everyone, but it is their job -- what they are paid to do -- to make the customers in aggregate happy so they keep sending Blizzard money.

It is not the players' responsibilities to do a single thing they don't want to do. If a player decides "I'd be happier not doing activity X, and if that blocks me stop playing" they have an absolute, inalienable right to do that. The game design will have failed them as a product. If the game design fails enough players, it fails, period.

Which is what they did, and game went from a MMORPG to a MMO-ARPG because they listened to players way too much.

Players are at fault, in particular arena players are at fault, which is why after a few years they called arena "Their biggest mistake".

Quick example:

It was the Retri Paladins crying they cant do as much damage as a Warrior, so they got overbuffed at the start of WoTLK, we had that atrocious month of imbalance between Paladin/DK, then the nerfs, then it never recovered over the next expansions.

Then Warriors cried that DKs were too OP with Shadowmourne, and we had that amazing 2 month start of Cata where the newly implemented Colossus Smash would destroy anything.

And to make it less about paladins, it was the Hybrid classes crying that they cant kill pure DPS players in Arena if they both play at the same level, because the game was still a RPG, and it wasnt about Arena.


PvE balance got utterfly fucked every single patch for Arena balance, until after like 3 expansions they managed to start adding "Only in PvP".

It other words, players have no right to cry about anything, when they are what caused the problems with WoW.

But to not blame players completely, it was also Blizzard trying to make Arena into an e-sport, and instead of ignoring all those cries and simply saying "Arena is just a side mode, go raid", they tried to fix it.

PvP is a side-fun mode in the never ending raiding game of World of Warcraft, when people get it inside their tiny brains, WoW would become a better game, problem is..WoW is already long ruined in that aspect and can never recover.

[Mafic]

So ? You were still capped to 1700.

No, if you were behind at the start of the season that is not true. Also, to obtain the extra cap bump you had to do rated play and even then a rated player would have 5 pieces of conquest versus a non rated player who would have 4 pieces.

Well, that's your point of view, S3 was out when HFC was largely farmed in heroic mode and needed some extra reward (= Grove mount) for people to stay on the game or just come back for those who couldn't ride the Mythic train.

I am not stating a "point of view". It was faster to farm through PVP in WoD than PVE for gear.

+ 2 weekly arena rewards with higher item level with rating. I understand that if you're 1500 you basically don't feel a difference. Since there is no cap, you can farm Echoes as much as you want, which was not the case with Conquest points. I agree it would be smarter to farm Argunite but there's a soft cap on it.

And you are bound to obtain repeat items in Legion due to the RNG nature of boxes.

In other words you don't know what you are talking about.

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Reality stands that most complains are simply from the fact people dont want to PvP, they want to outgear other players to cover for their lack of skill.

I outgear more people now in Legion PVP instances than previous expansions. In WoD there was a gear cap in all instanced PVP meaning the highest gear was conquest. In Legion, the gear cap has been removed, because the assumption was that gear being normalized wouldn't be a "big deal". However, that has proven to be wrong, because your damage scales not only with your items level in instanced PVP via template. But your secondary stats as well scale with ilevel and your weapon ilevel is a huge factor in damage calculations. Which is why a high ilevel artifact weapon for melee is more potent than for casters due to weapon damage calculations.

[twistedmynd]

Wasn't the highest demand for pvp in the history of wow back in burning crusade? Someone on this forum linked the statistics of the playerbase's activity in wow through the years. Basically the TLDR is that most everybody in BC did arenas, but it was because they wanted their toon to get stronger and eventually the most accessible way to do that was farming dailies for badge gear and pvp. Raiding was too hard of a barrier to enter (attunements, having to go through previous tiers, etc).

Then it was like the opposite problem in Wrath. But again, a lot of the people raiding in Wrath were doing it for the ease of gear. A lot of those people would have rather been doing pvp, but you kind of had to do raiding to pvp. So of course the statistics were skewed showing majority of the playerbase spends their time raiding.

Edit: actually, most of the playerbase never graduate past questing if we're accounting for every account, but I was focusing on the max leveled end game players.

[Philomene]

No, if you were behind at the start of the season that is not true. Also, to obtain the extra cap bump you had to do rated play and even then a rated player would have 5 pieces of conquest versus a non rated player who would have 4 pieces.



I am not stating a "point of view". It was faster to farm through PVP in WoD than PVE for gear.




And you are bound to obtain repeat items in Legion due to the RNG nature of boxes.

In other words you don't know what you are talking about.

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I outgear more people now in Legion PVP instances than previous expansions. In WoD there was a gear cap in all instanced PVP meaning the highest gear was conquest. In Legion, the gear cap has been removed, because the assumption was that gear being normalized wouldn't be a "big deal". However, that has proven to be wrong, because your damage scales not only with your items level in instanced PVP via template. But your secondary stats as well scale with ilevel and your weapon ilevel is a huge factor in damage calculations. Which is why a high ilevel artifact weapon for melee is more potent than for casters due to weapon damage calculations.

Oh now we’re talking about people late in the season and the extended conquest cap. While you could only get one or two 710 items per week in S3, you could get more in Heroic HFC, granted PvP gear was better in PvP. That’s facts. You not raiding and sticking to casual BGs or low-rated arenas doesn’t mean it was faster to get gear. You’re bound to get duplicate items, but items can get higher level than base + you can get as much as you want. It’s not because it’s a flawed design that those are not rewards.

But I’m done here, I guess people can’t think that pruning ruined the PvP experience because they didn’t even feel it because they didn’t use their class properly before xD