Jail time for geriatric pronouns.

[JohnBrown1917]

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...201720180SB219

Among other things, the bill would make it unlawful, except as specified, for any long-term care facility to take specified actions wholly or partially on the basis of a person’s actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) status, including, among others, willfully and repeatedly failing to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns, or denying admission to a long-term care facility, transferring or refusing to transfer a resident within a facility or to another facility, or discharging or evicting a resident from a facility.


Is that legal? Apparently it is iIF I just felt like calling my boss mam every day when he is a sir they could probably fire me for being a nuisance but jail time?

Jail or a fine for not calling someone what they want to be called?

That puts us right up there with Lebanon, Venezuala, Poland , Germany, Azerbaijan, Turkey, the Netherlands, Kuwait, Bahrain, Thailand, Iran , Indonesia.
Pretty much nobody gets rights.

lol Op, are you high?


lol

(Infracted) ~ Trolling

[Jilor]

Slopes can often be slippery.

So, trying to be careful to not turn this in to something that will get the whole thread locked. But, effectively, current case law protects transgender people under sex discrimination. Essentially, it sees that retaliation for how they dress or present themselves or whatever is essentially discriminating against them on the basis of sex as the only reason people care is because they effectively don't fit the mold of how society deems they should act. So, that slope already exists. However, these are all district court rulings, the only way that case law precedence would be overruled (and make a law like this illegal) is via the Supreme Court. Which, is certainly possible, but SCOTUS seems less than interested to touch anything LGBT they can avoid. So, until someone with a lot of money and power on either side pushes it there, that slope will exist. And all SCOTUS will do is remove the slope or leave it in place in a more permanent fashion.

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You are being disingenuous here.

all im saying is that if u legalize punishing people for using the incorrect pronouns in one area of life, you risk legalize punishing people for using the incorrect pronouns in different areas of life too. Really not the big of a step. Dont even need to lube the slope up. That small little step is slippery enough.

Just worth noting, NYC has had a more severe version of this law on its books for over a year now and no one has challenged it. While this law is solely long term care facilities, NYC's is across every aspect of life (even, say, walking down the street). So, that slope already exists and no one has seemed to care yet.

[Egomaniac]

You are being disingenuous here.

all im saying is that if u legalize punishing people for using the incorrect pronouns in one area of life, you risk legalize punishing people for using the incorrect pronouns in different areas of life too. Really not the big of a step. Dont even need to lube the slope up. That small little step is slippery enough.

It's totally a huge step. We're talking about "willfully and repeatedly failing to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns" when their names and pronouns on record and you're trying to blow it up into "The next thing you know you'll go to jail for calling customer at McDonalds "sir".

[ellieg]

It's totally a huge step. We're talking about "willfully and repeatedly failing to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns" when their names and pronouns on record and you're trying to blow it up into "The next thing you know you'll go to jail for calling customer at McDonalds "sir".

Im not making that step. Im saying any limit on my freedom of speech, is a limit i disagree with. and one that will lead to more limits.

[Egomaniac]

Im not making that step. Im saying any limit on my freedom of speech, is a limit i disagree with. and one that will lead to more limits.

But it isn't a limit on your freedom of speech. You're trying to turn it into one. This law only applies to how long term care facilities treat the residents under their care. It has no effect on the rest of the world. There is no slope here.

Also, there are already limits on your freedom of speech already that you accept. If there is a slippery slope...you got on it a long time ago.

[ellieg]

But it isn't a limit on your freedom of speech. You're trying to turn it into one. This law only applies to how long term care facilities treat the residents under their care. It has no effect on the rest of the world. There is no slope here.

So you are personally gauranteeing me that a law on the incorrect usage of pronouns will only ever apply in this exact same scenario for the rest of my life?

[Dovashy]

This isn't infringing on your precious freedoms. It's having the respect for an individual to address another human being by their preferred pronouns. It's not that hard to grasp, really. If it ruffles your jimmies that much than it's time to really question just who has the problem. And hey, if you're really concerned about slipping up? Why not just go with it and use terms that work for either gender.

[ellieg]

This isn't infringing on your precious freedoms. It's having the respect for an individual to address another human being by their preferred pronouns. It's not that hard to grasp, really. If it ruffles your jimmies that much than it's time to really question just who has the problem. And hey, if you're really concerned about slipping up? Why not just go with it and use terms that work for either gender.

"either gender". are you implying there are only 2? I cant believe this forum has become so bigotted.

[docterfreeze]

Remember when we laughed at tumblr? Now tumblr is real life.

[Dovashy]

"either gender". are you implying there are only 2? I cant believe this forum has become so bigotted.

Oh you. As someone who is transgender, I couldn't care less about such silliness. People are who they are, and ain't nothing that's gonna change that. Though I find it adorable that you think that way.

[ellieg]

Oh you. As someone who is transgender, I couldn't care less about such silliness. People are who they are, and ain't nothing that's gonna change that. Though I find it adorable that you think that way.

And that, is the reason we are having this discussion. "people are who they are, and aint nothing (dressing different/surgery) that's gonna change that."

[GreenGoldSharpie]

This isn't infringing on your precious freedoms. It's having the respect for an individual to address another human being by their preferred pronouns. It's not that hard to grasp, really. If it ruffles your jimmies that much than it's time to really question just who has the problem. And hey, if you're really concerned about slipping up? Why not just go with it and use terms that work for either gender.

You'll note the response is tumblr jokes. It's what they got to defend against being a shitheel to old folks who can't take care of themselves.

Moreover, posters here are typically not going to recognize that being a dick in public -- and that is what crapping on trans people entails -- is going to increasingly earn social rebuke. Hell, it's going to earn you issues at work and school, too. No one wants you wasting time at work pushing your bullshit and insulting trans employees, and, speaking as a trans teacher, I'm going to toss you out to the counselor for disrupting class.

I bet they never talk about LGBT folks being fired either. From personal experience, it's almost life ruining.

[Mormolyce]

These are state run institutions, so these people are employees of the state.

Another country to avoid traveling to.

You're afraid of being jailed because you intend to work in state retirement homes in said country and belligerently call people by the wrong pronoun?

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Remember when we laughed at tumblr? Now tumblr is real life.

Psssst, transgender people have always been real life.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

And that, is the reason we are having this discussion. "people are who they are, and aint nothing (dressing different/surgery) that's gonna change that."

I think the proper response is "no one gives a fuck about what you think." Be a dick to me in public, I'm cool with everyone socially isolating you. Do it in my classroom, and you can explain why calling me a "him" is relevant to the Joad family's experience on Route 66 to the counselor.

[ellieg]

I think the proper response is "no one gives a fuck about what you think." Be a dick to me in public, I'm cool with everyone socially isolating you. Do it in my classroom, and you can explain why calling me a "him" is relevant to the Joad family's experience on Route 66 to the counselor.

I'm sure im gonna get banned for typing in this thread, but my question is, why do you have to chagne your gender to be who you want to be? Why cant you just be a boy who happens to wear dresses and do 'girly' things, without having to be referred to as 'her'. If genders are just social constructs, why pretend to rebel against them, while also conforming to the gender role of the person you are trying to be?

Or, if you want to be neither, why not just be referred to as the one youre born with, but while also doing literally whatever you want to do? Why police how people refer to you?

[GreenGoldSharpie]

I'm sure im gonna get banned for typing in this thread, but my question is, why do you have to chagne your gender to be who you want to be? Why cant you just be a boy who happens to wear dresses and do 'girly' things, without having to be referred to as 'her'. If genders are just social constructs, why pretend to rebel against them, while also conforming to the gender role of the person you are trying to be?

You're presupposing a belief system on me. Plus, I teach all day. I'm not here to help you with what gender dysphoria actually is when a google search of actual resources will adequately do so. Look it up, along with the prevailing symptoms. WPATH has been a thing for 40 years and been through 7 versions. It's not new, so why don't you know before you try and discuss us?

[Dovashy]

Discussion? This seems more like a hosh-posh of random opinions that hold no merit in a real life situation. It's always fun to read stuff like this and chuckle knowing full well very few of you would actually voice those thoughts in a public setting.

[ellieg]

You're presupposing a belief system on me. Plus, I teach all day. I'm not here to help you with what gender dysphoria actually is when a goodl search of actual resources will adequately do so. Look it up, along with the prevailing symptoms. WPATH has been a thing for 40 years and been through 7 versions. It's not new, so why don't you know before you try and discuss us?

So we continue to disagree on why people feel the need to change their gender, and neither of us have learned anything from this debate/argument/discussion.

What belief system am i presupposing on you? Im simply asking why you must feel the need to be referred to as something other than what you are. When you could easily be born a male, be referred to as sir, and literally do whatever you want. Why demand to be called she?

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Discussion? This seems more like a hosh-posh of random opinions that hold no merit in a real life situation. It's always fun to read stuff like this and chuckle knowing full well very few of you would actually voice those thoughts in a public setting.

I have learned that most 'discussion' with people such as yourself in the real world dont lead to anythign. Im not trying to be mean or say that my opinion is correct and you are wrong. I just know that neither of us ever change our minds, so after previous experiences, i generally tend to avoid transgender people in real life.

[Egomaniac]

So you are personally gauranteeing me that a law on the incorrect usage of pronouns will only ever apply in this exact same scenario for the rest of my life?

I can't guarantee that anymore than you can guarantee that it will be applied universally. What I can say is that this law is very specific in it's intentions and that if someone wanted to make the pronoun usage part universal...there are easier avenues already in existence.

[GreenGoldSharpie]

So we continue to disagree on why people feel the need to change their gender, and neither of us have learned anything from this debate/argument/discussion.

I teach 40+ kids in an alternative school. It's not in my contract to teach someone who is presumedly a grown ass man on something he should know before he attempts to discuss trans people.

I even pointed you in the right direction, but I'm not going to wade through a bunch of Paul McHugh quotes, Federalist blog posts, and misquoted research to arrive at the basic point WPATH and every major medical association in the country has been making. Look. It. Up.

What belief system am i presupposing on you? Im simply asking why you must feel the need to be referred to as something other than what you are. When you could easily be born a male, be referred to as sir, and literally do whatever you want. Why demand to be called she?

"If genders are just social constructs, why pretend to rebel against them, while also conforming to the gender role of the person you are trying to be?"

You presuppose I view gender entirely as a construct, you pretend I'm "rebelling" against something, and you pretend I'm "conforming" to anything beyond what makes me happy.

This is why I don't take you seriously.