The Dragon Aspects never should have been made

[JustRob]

Odyn was right, the Aspects were a mistake, and one of the biggest flaws in the scheme of the Titans. Alextrasza was subjugated during the Second War, resulting in countless deaths. Nozdormu led to the Infinite Dragonflight. Malygos led to the Nexus War. Ysera led to the Emerald Nightmare. And Neltharion ofcourse led to Deathwing, the most powerful servant of the Old Gods and the reason of many tragedies that otherwise wouldn't have occured.

Only two of them are left, we already know Nozdormu eventually turns into Murozond and we kill him, and Alextrasza will probably become an obstacle we need to kill eventually as well.

The world of Azeroth would have been far better off without them.

[Bathory]

The Aspects weren't the problem themselves, it was the Titan's underestimating the Old Gods.

N'zoth poisons Neltharion who massacres Malygos's Blues and breaks him mentally (Nexus War). Nozdormu turns to Murazond after the results of the End time. That's three aspects down right there

Yogg poisons the Dream, eventually bringing down Ysera through Xavius.

Alexstrasza was the only one to avoid Old God influence (if you don't count the grand scheme of Sargeras/Orc's invasion).

[Stormspellz]

So by that same logic: the keepers shouldn't of existed, look at Odyn & Loken's actions.

[Eon Drache]

Going to go ahead and use the logic of the Infinite Dragonflight. We didn't know if they were good or bad at first because each action seemed to have had an immediately good effect for Azeroth. Stopping the Horde from invading? Stopping Arthas from becoming the Lich King? Each one was good right? No, because in the end those events needed to happen or we'd be much worse off.

Same thing for the aspects in general. By your logic then Sergaras is right. So we should just let the burning legion win because he's just preventing the void lords from taking control, right?

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

The Emerald Nightmare was not the fault of Ysera at all. It was all the Old Gods' fault and their minions. She did everything she could do to help.

[Deleted]

The alternative to the aspects would have been a larger valarjar army, and those are just as corruptible/fallible as the dragons. its not like the keepers would have done nothing at all if they didnt decide on the dragons.

not to mention, can you imagine the cultural shifts on azeroth if every race was all about proving themselves worthy to become a valarjar? the dragons at least understood the benefit of non interference when possible.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Odyn hasn't done anything wrong, comparing loken and odyn is ridiculous.

Odyn hasn't done anything wrong? Are you having a laugh?

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Tell me one thing Odyn has done objectively wrong that isn't a morally "wrong" thing in the mind of dumb mortals.

Besides forcing someone into damnation? Or is that all sunshines and rainbows?

[thesmall001]

Tell me one thing Odyn has done objectively wrong that isn't a morally "wrong" thing in the mind of dumb mortals.

Putting the subjugation of Helya ASIDE for the most part, he meddled with a force he did not fully understand when he decided to make use of the Shadowlands. It's hard to say how bad of a mistake he made as we don't yet fully understand it either. But certainly binding somebody to a force you acknowledge is powerful but that you don't understand -against their will, no less- is probably an objectively bad move.

And, honestly, literally breaking a wing of the giant prison complex sealing away an evil you EXIST to guard and throwing it into the sun because your friends all got lizard pets and you're more of a "Swedish-primate-person" was also probably not the best shout.

If anything, all Legion has really proven was the overall inadequacy of the Titans, which could be seen as a grand commentary of the power of theology and the deification of power... But is probably just power creep for the sake of keeping the story interesting xD The actual mistake was allowing the curse of flesh to permeate. This screwed Ra (via his Mogu), Thorim (via his Vykrul) and everyone through every Titan-forged race.

[Pandragon]

None of this is because they became aspects, but because of the Old Gods.

Deathwing: Old Gods drove him insane

Malygos: Resulted from Deathwing, after the Old Gods drove him nuts

Ysera: Old Gods corrupted the dream

Nozdormu: Old Gods tricked him into trying to stop his death, turning him into Murozond and making the Infinite.

[nothingsjim]

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. If we don't do anything simply because something we did might go wrong...well, I don't have to explain how well that will go.

As for Odyn's action, pardon me if I am mistaken, what's the difference between his Golden Army and the Forsaken? They are both risen from the dead, with the Vrykul actively seeking it due to religious belief preached by Odyn himself (You can call it brainwashing if you want to). One has golden metal body while the other has decaying corpse body.

What else are their difference really?

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Odyn didn't do anything objectively wrong, sure he did some morally fucked shit, but in the end he was right.

In what way did anything he do the "right thing" to do? Please describe it in your so called "objectively" how he's right.

[Soeroah]

Odyn's getting whiny about his racial superiority and storming out of Ulduar with an entire section of it gave Loken the chance to even put Yogg-Saron's plans into effect, and his treatment of Helya gave Loken the ability to have him locked away for millennia.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

He was right about the aspects, he was right about just about everything. The only way he is seen as evil is if you apply mortal values to him, forcibly doing shit to helya.

Every titan construct is able to be corrupted, not just the Dragon Aspects. If it weren't them it would have been the Titan Keepers, who some were actually corrupted. He wasn't right, but he wasn't wrong at the same time.

How can you keep saying damning Helya is only bad with mortal values? Do you think all the other immortals and keepers would have been fine?

[Deleted]

Odyn did nothing wrong!

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Obviously it doesn't matter, he seemingly knows the best way to handle everything because it worked out/would have worked out by his way.

Or maybe if he actually stayed connected with Ulduar things there would have been a lot safer, possibly stopping the corruption that Yogg spread. Including helping with everything that happened in Northrend. Nothing he's done has shown was the best option, the negative outweighs the positive.

[Caerule]

Ultimately, all of this seems the fault of the Void Lords.

Did the Titans underestimate the Old Gods? It's likely yes. The Aspects and dragonflights mostly did their job. They watched over Azeroth. They stopped the prophecy of the Hour of Twilight. But damn, did the Old Gods ruin a lot. But Keepers weren't any more immune. The Void Lords created some insidious things.

The Sundering didn't help keep those Old Gods secure. The Legion is to blame for that one. But maybe the Titans did know check-ups would be needed. Times to return and restore order. Azeroth was of prime importance, after all. The Titans are known to have gone silent. Turns out, they were dead. Also Sargeras' fault. Him being driven to madness was also the fault of the Void Lords.

Relying on lesser creatures to do their bidding ultimately wasn't the worst decision the Titans made. Sargeras ultimately was onto something about it requiring a Legion that can travel the cosmos to complete a task he was probably right in thinking the Titans couldn't complete with their limited numbers. Just fel and destruction were the wrong way to go.

I don't doubt Azeroth has learned from all of this. She certainly has raised her children into a mighty army that fights evil in the cosmos.

[JustRob]

The Emerald Nightmare was not the fault of Ysera at all. It was all the Old Gods' fault and their minions. She did everything she could do to help.

The Emerald Dream existed because of Ysera, and if the Emerald Dream wouldn't have existed then the Nightmare wouldn't have existed. In the end Ysera was corrupted easily by the Nightmare, a result of her own realm and existance, and then killed off like a rabid dog. Would have been better if she never existed.

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Ultimately, all of this seems the fault of the Void Lords.

Did the Titans underestimate the Old Gods? It's likely yes. The Aspects and dragonflights mostly did their job. They watched over Azeroth. They stopped the prophecy of the Hour of Twilight. But damn, did the Old Gods ruin a lot. But Keepers weren't any more immune. The Void Lords created some insidious things.

The Sundering didn't help keep those Old Gods secure. The Legion is to blame for that one. But maybe the Titans did know check-ups would be needed. Times to return and restore order. Azeroth was of prime importance, after all. The Titans are known to have gone silent. Turns out, they were dead. Also Sargeras' fault. Him being driven to madness was also the fault of the Void Lords.

Relying on lesser creatures to do their bidding ultimately wasn't the worst decision the Titans made. Sargeras ultimately was onto something about it requiring a Legion that can travel the cosmos to complete a task he was probably right in thinking the Titans couldn't complete with their limited numbers. Just fel and destruction were the wrong way to go.

I don't doubt Azeroth has learned from all of this. She certainly has raised her children into a mighty army that fights evil in the cosmos.

Sargeras wasn't driven to madness, I still believe he is 100% in his right mind. He wasn't corrupted by the Old Gods or the Void Lords. He just looked at the universe objectively and saw that it was flawed, and came to the only logical conclusion: Burn everything to the ground and start again. The Titans ignored his warnings and refused to see things his way because they were too proud of themselves and the worlds they created. They couldn't let go, distance themselves and look at it objectively. In the end, Sargeras was right, but at this point there's so many independent races on Azeroth that everyone sees it as a horrifying act to annihilate them all.

[Temp name]

The Emerald Dream existed because of Ysera, and if the Emerald Dream wouldn't have existed then the Nightmare wouldn't have existed. In the end Ysera was corrupted easily by the Nightmare, a result of her own realm and existance, and then killed off like a rabid dog. Would have been better if she never existed.

Ysera didn't create the dream, she was only the guardian of it. The titans made the dream to show what Azeroth would've been like without mortals.

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Sargeras wasn't driven to madness, I still believe he is 100% in his right mind. He wasn't corrupted by the Old Gods or the Void Lords. He just looked at the universe objectively and saw that it was flawed, and came to the only logical conclusion: Burn everything to the ground and start again. The Titans ignored his warnings and refused to see things his way because they were too proud of themselves and the worlds they created. They couldn't let go, distance themselves and look at it objectively. In the end, Sargeras was right, but at this point there's so many independent races on Azeroth that everyone sees it as a horrifying act to annihilate them all.

Sargeras is destroying the entire universe to stop it from being taken over by the void lords. He's literally breaking something himself to stop others from breaking it.

[JustRob]

Ysera didn't create the dream, she was only the guardian of it. The titans made the dream to show what Azeroth would've been like without mortals.

Regardless, the Emerald Nightmare might not have existed if Ysera hadn't been empowered. And even if it had, it would have been a lot less effective with no green dragons to corrupt. In the end, the Old Gods claimed two of the five Aspects as their slaves, and that alone is reason enough for their creation to be a mistake.

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Sargeras is destroying the entire universe to stop it from being taken over by the void lords. He's literally breaking something himself to stop others from breaking it.

Before creation comes destruction. All Sargeras is doing is wiping the slate clean so they can do it right this time. Without evil Old Gods and Void Lords corrupting everything. If the Void Lords get their way, everything will be reduced to nothingness and no life will ever be possible in the universe again. There was a chance for a perfect world without evil, but the existing universe would have to be sacrificed.