Heroic raiding should be harder. Reason: Titanforging

[primalmatter]

Really i think heroic is what it always was. Minus the last few ramping up to near mythic/mythic and the first few being normalish levels. Mythic just gives you a full instance of ramped up. Normal gives you a full instance of normal. Heroic just gives you an instance of heroic.

I would disagree to a extent..

Not a 100% but depends how far back you are comparing.

[Deleted]

there is math he takes the averages of kill times from the first kills to farm and does the math. stop selecting what you want to hear.

There is no math in his video. He was just frustrated because his guild sucked and kept fucking up star signs on augur after they were already nerfed to 15s. Then he made this bullshit video and skewed the actual data (other people gave relevant links to wcl) to fit his angry agenda.

You might wanna think about the absurd claim that skorpyron farm kills (2 months later) were slower than first kills. But hey it's a bar chart, so it must be true!

[PhantasmagoriaX]

So as a heroic raider, I dont think heroic should be harder.... If you out gear it then maybe you should do mythic.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I would disagree to a extent..

Not a 100% but depends how far back you are comparing.

Back when there was just raiding. Not flip a switch and the bosses are at the level you like. Heroic is just what that is. Raiding before switch flips. To a high extent anyway. Of course the curve is more evened out and different because well.. now you can just flip a switch. But for the most part that is where I am aiming.

[primalmatter]

Back when there was just raiding. Not flip a switch and the bosses are at the level you like. Heroic is just what that is. Raiding before switch flips. To a high extent anyway. Of course the curve is more evened out and different because well.. now you can just flip a switch. But for the most part that is where I am aiming.

I can undsrstand that then difficulty wise I would say heroic would rough be gruul to mid ssc and tk using that old metric.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I can undsrstand that then difficulty wise I would say heroic would rough be gruul to mid ssc and tk using that old metric.

Yeah I wouldnt argue that. I mean sure in Cata and MoP and WotLK had an insanely easy first raid and than the "normal" got watered down with the newer "heroic" stuff (time gate on the terms of course) and lot of that was kinda undone though mostly nerf mechanics that just kinda lead to winning eventually.

[Sticky]

Keep the difficulty but remove TF, problem solved. Bring back WF 5-10ilvls max.

This is the correct response.

[judgementofantonidas]

If Blizz isn't tuning it for TF, it's a tuning issue, not a TF issue.
Due to the fixed statistical chance of TF, all it does is simply shift the power curve to the right (while also elongating the top of the bell curve a little). It's no harder to balance for TF than lack of TF.

However, Blizzard likes people being able to jump right back in, and that may be why they're undertuned as they know returning players won't have progressed on the TF curve as far.

there are plenty of average players that will not "faceroll" heroic content no matter how many titanforges they are wearing. the op is either a mythic player trolling or out of touch with the reality of things.

[Cazz17]

Completely agree. You go from heroic raiding which you can pug and clear in a day and the next step is to do mythic, which is a big difference for a long period of time (as in until you outgear it if you can't fit to a schedule)

[Sylvaeres]

Title says it all. After a week or two, you can faceroll the heroic bosses. One should not be forced into mythic if he wants a somewhat challenging content.

There is no challenge in Heroic anymore, gear power level becomes inflated with titanforging. It leaves one desiring for a harder content, which Mythic raiding can not satisfy due to logistics constraints (20 people or no raid for you).

Keep Mythic as it is, but make Heroic raiding more challenging than that, be it by higher hp% pool or more unforgiving mechanics. Balance it around titanforging, or revert titanforge back to warforge (+6ilv).


PS: Free loot is not a problem, the problem is when it trivializes a difficulty that was suposed to be somewhat challenging.

What an amazingly new concept. This just in, Heroic raiding isn't difficult months after raid release.

[Deleted]

Keep the difficulty but remove TF, problem solved. Bring back WF 5-10ilvls max.

^ This. TF should have been removed long time ago. Shittiest system ever.

[Deleted]

We should just have raiding.... no more heroic, mythic, etc.

If people can't kill the first boss which is then tailored to "mythic" one set difficulty then they get tired of it and leave, same as people have left on Mistress, Maiden and Avatar, the difficulty this tier has been unlike anything I've experienced mythic raiding.

[Logwyn]

If people can't kill the first boss which is then tailored to "mythic" one set difficulty then they get tired of it and leave, same as people have left on Mistress, Maiden and Avatar, the difficulty this tier has been unlike anything I've experienced mythic raiding.

Hmm I see your point. Maybe it would be better if Mythic was flex like Normal and Heroic?

[gallamann]

OP and all you fanbois against TF.... TF has NEVER been the problem

ToS, umm they gave you the Crucible, which gave you +15 iLevel to Weapon, that was huge nerf to ToS.

Some lucky bastard getting a TF item they could actually use, isn't having a real impact on any level of raiding. 99.9% of the time you wipe it isn't lack of DPS, it's someone failing to do the mechanics.

Put another way, go grab 13 LFR level people (aka non raiders, not alts of raiders) who are 930+ (over gear heroic difficulty) , and lead a raid into ToS. Should easily down Goroth... I doubt it. But lets say after an hour you do, now use your skip to Maiden option and let us all know how it goes. You are going to CONSTANTLY wipe due to mechanics on Maidens, not DPS.

In short, if you are bitching about TF, then you are butt hurt about someone else's luck. No more or less.

[Eapoe]

Won't do it, Blizzard needs something to keep the plebs playing, and nothing better than the false sense of "hahahhaba, fuck you progression raiders, we're just as good as you because Blizz gives me things that you used to be the only ones able to get it!"

- - - Updated - - -

OP and all you fanbois against TF.... TF has NEVER been the problem

ToS, umm they gave you the Crucible, which gave you +15 iLevel to Weapon, that was huge nerf to ToS.

Some lucky bastard getting a TF item they could actually use, isn't having a real impact on any level of raiding. 99.9% of the time you wipe it isn't lack of DPS, it's someone failing to do the mechanics.

Put another way, go grab 13 LFR level people (aka non raiders, not alts of raiders) who are 930+ (over gear heroic difficulty) , and lead a raid into ToS. Should easily down Goroth... I doubt it. But lets say after an hour you do, now use your skip to Maiden option and let us all know how it goes. You are going to CONSTANTLY wipe due to mechanics on Maidens, not DPS.

In short, if you are bitching about TF, then you are butt hurt about someone else's luck. No more or less.

The problem with TF is from the fact it makes raiders feel forced to do old content. Older xpacs had progression in a set tone: new raid? Time to ditch that old gear.
Now it's: new raid? Time to completely re grind all that shit I've already done to get high ilvl as it has remained BiS.
WF is fine, but things being able to upgrade to current ilvls is a bit much.
Now, I'm not saying reduce m+ rewards, I'm fine with those being raid level equivalent ilvl; however, TF is a bit too much.
On a side note, while I am not against m+, I feel like Blizz failed in making it an alternative to raiding. Raiders still need to do them as they are possibly THE best way to grind AP/Legos/gear for this xpac. Personally, I would like to see a complete separation, in that raid sets are disabled in m+ and the gear is scaled down, and the same for m+ where the gear scales down in raids. They need to be made true alternatives, not a compliment (or mandatory) facet of the other.

[Deleted]

OP and all you fanbois against TF.... TF has NEVER been the problem

ToS, umm they gave you the Crucible, which gave you +15 iLevel to Weapon, that was huge nerf to ToS.

Some lucky bastard getting a TF item they could actually use, isn't having a real impact on any level of raiding. 99.9% of the time you wipe it isn't lack of DPS, it's someone failing to do the mechanics.

Put another way, go grab 13 LFR level people (aka non raiders, not alts of raiders) who are 930+ (over gear heroic difficulty) , and lead a raid into ToS. Should easily down Goroth... I doubt it. But lets say after an hour you do, now use your skip to Maiden option and let us all know how it goes. You are going to CONSTANTLY wipe due to mechanics on Maidens, not DPS.

In short, if you are bitching about TF, then you are butt hurt about someone else's luck. No more or less.

the problem with tf isnt about the dps you gain from it but lower content being able to be an upgrade.
this is what raiders are tilted and angry about - nobody would cry about titanforge if it would be capped to +15 for example.