[Rant] ilvl issue and players skill

[Khallid]

and the data you are talking about is exackly what blizzard do not want you to see because its bringing nothing but exclusion of players and toxicity to game.

That's only assuming that the players enlisting to join a pug are always bad. Realistically the toxicity only happens when two groups of people that shouldn't play together end in the same group. Let the elitist find the other elitist and the casuals play with other casuals. Only when you mix them you get the problem of one side not meeting the other side's expectations.

[Trend]

DUDE.. what i meant is Ilvl930 is the ilvl that is dropped in M ToS. Thus, "M TOS ILVL". THAT IS ALL. You misunderstood. What I am trying to say is the opposite. The fact that people don't do M TOS but are having ilvl that is higher than what M TOS is dropping.

Misunderstanding and not agreeing with how you are trying to frame things to fit the point you are trying to make are two different things. However, the bigger issue is still that you're still hung up on ilvl when it's never meant much, and means even less right now. A pure ilvl oriented player at 930 will have significantly less capability than a raider at 930, not even accounting for skill. The random stats and lack of set bonuses will be a huge loss. Ilvl is just a rough approximation, so of course if you pick up random ppl with "high" ilvl a lot of them are going to be bad.

Plus, again, the "problem" you're seeing is temporary. Joe Ilvl will still be around 930 in 4 weeks (or whatever it is) and the raiders and serious key pushers will be getting drops with much higher levels. Until then, just do some inspections before blindly accepting ilvl.

[kamuimac]

That's only assuming that the players enlisting to join a pug are always bad. Realistically the toxicity only happens when two groups of people that shouldn't play together end in the same group. Let the elitist find the other elitist and the casuals play with other casuals. Only when you mix them you get the problem of one side not meeting the other side's expectations.

ye because we live in perfect world where it would work

have you ever played LoL or Dota ? so what if they have rnaking systems - people are still utter cunts to themselves in there the moment something doesnt go 100% perfect.

[Khallid]

ye because we live in perfect world where it would work

have you ever played LoL or Dota ? so what if they have rnaking systems - people are still utter cunts to themselves in there the moment something doesnt go 100% perfect.

LOL, well that just goes to say players are mean. It's not like the video game they're playing is going to teach them to be nicer. My point all along was that easy gearing to get high item level has nothing to do with any of that.

[Ange]

Addons help a lot if you are looking for other players for a specific content.

You want to clear fast raids every ID reset?
-> Oilvl, check each player if they got 40-50+ ID clears on their char, if not, they will most likely just waste your time, lower your fun

You want to clear M+ keys?
-> raider.io, check current and last patch mscore, it should not be higher or lower than yours, HIGHER means they will leave most likely if anything doesn't go as they used to, LOWER means they will most likely be overwhelmed by the difficulty you do.

I am not sure if player skill is the right wording in MMO's, since its all about farming and repeat content you enjoy.
If you are not into helping newplayers/twinks/casuals and just want to do a specific content type with similar players - check their gameplay DATA with those simple addons.

[Sylvaeres]

We have reach the point in the expansion where everyone can easily hit an ilvl of 930 with minimal effort.

With ilvl 935 gears given out weekly, 2 x legendaries, warforged/titanforges from raidfinders, it takes ridiculous low amount of effort to achieve high item level.

ilvl always been an "artificial" gate to doing to certain content. If a player even if he's new to wow, have high enough ilvl, he will have the confident to join harder content like high M+ keys.

However currently, I felt we have reach a saturation point where I have ilvl 940 people running around in 15+ keys with no clue to the dungeon mechanics.
In a day I've experience,

- ilvl 939 warlock who took the light on Coordana and deliberating staying out of aoe puddle. When I asked why, she said "u have to stay out of fire silly billy". Word for word. +14 VotW

-ilvl 938 Mage, despite having the mobility, unable to dodge Cosmic Sycthe, getting one shot 10 second into the fight. +11 MoS

-ilvl 941 Warrior, not knowing to stand under Dredseron to avoid downdraft pushback. Wiping the group for 12 pulls before our tank calls it quit. +15 DHT.

-ilvl 935 pally tank, once again on Coordana, do not know kick mechanic, get kicked out of platform and ninja logoff in shame after 4th pull. +10 VotW

-ilvl 936 Priest, do not undeerstand Attumen mechanic and mass dispel the debuff killing everyone in process. +11 Lower Kara


Except for Kara, all the above mentioned cases are from dungeons that has been around since launch of legion. I could understand if people fail mechanics on SoT or CoEN. Some of these dps were pulling 700k - 800k dps, which is way too low for their ilvl. In all honesty, I don't blame these people. If you are smashing thru normal mythic or heroic version of these dungeons, it is normal for one to think that ilvl is the only entry barrier to the higher key version. Most of them are awestruck that they are dying to something they have "cleared" many times.

Some of you will say "thats why you don't pug" or "find a guild". I feel that this sort of response does not tackle the issue but rather avoids it. I have a guild and I do M+ with them often. But they don't like M+ as much as I do. Or if they are not online, I left to pug.

Herein lies the issue. Imagine if warforges/titanforges do not exists. Gears can only be inflated by your 2 x ilvl970 legendaries. If someone with an ilvl 935 queue for your M+ key, you mathematically assume, that this person have cleared H ToS and some M ToS. Thus this player skill level have some reliable correlation to his item ilvl. We, at least, roughly have a baseline of this person's skill. But what we have now currently is not this.

Thus the community resort to websites like wowlog, wowprog and recently raider.io to assess a player skills. This also lead to the prevalence of "AoTC or GTFO" cases because ilvl is no longer a reliable way to assess a player's skill. There are many people who defend titanforges with "there's no harm if someone gets a ilvl955 gear from LFR, grow up!!!". And it is very ironic that these are the same people who whine when he cant get into AOTC group or his progress was wowlogged.

Before patch 7.3, I took the highest ilvl on my queue list. And it is very sad because I truly believe wowprogressing people is unhealthy.

What are your views.

#endrant

This just in, player tries pugging high keys without checking M+ scores, fails dungeons, points fingers. What a surprise

[kamuimac]

This just in, player tries pugging high keys without checking M+ scores, fails dungeons, points fingers. What a surprise

problem is not in pointing fingers

problem is in toxic entitlement that people feel entitlement to being able to complete dungeons regardless of how hard they are

problem is in people that do not want to even for a second take into consideration even 1 % chance of failure

thats the toxicity that was brought to pugging because blizzard cba to moderate the community

people do not want to work for pixels - they feel that just because they completed something once it should now have the difficulty level of lfr because "hurr durr i cba to reprogress it - i killed it once ergo i have it on farm"

thats the toxicity im talking about

and thats what brought those addons/sites into game - because blizzard was to lazy to act on time and ban the f... out of them.

[Ehrenpanzer]

"why mmorpgs are dying oh why "

thats why.

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clearly mythic +15 shoudl be removed from game if its bringing nothing but toxicity like that.

Alternatively, stick to the kiddie pool level of difficulty. Expecting basic knowledge of how to do fights at what is more or less the mythic raiding of dungeons shouldnt be too much to ask. Go play with +2's if you want the sightseeing "we are teh l33t" crowd...

[Deleted]

Alternatively, stick to the kiddie pool level of difficulty. Expecting basic knowledge of how to do fights at what is more or less the mythic raiding of dungeons shouldnt be too much to ask. Go play with +2's if you want the sightseeing "we are teh l33t" crowd...

No worries - that mister has made his lack of logic and understanding clear enough over multiple entries in this thread

[Sylvaeres]

problem is not in pointing fingers

problem is in toxic entitlement that people feel entitlement to being able to complete dungeons regardless of how hard they are

problem is in people that do not want to even for a second take into consideration even 1 % chance of failure

thats the toxicity that was brought to pugging because blizzard cba to moderate the community

people do not want to work for pixels - they feel that just because they completed something once it should now have the difficulty level of lfr because "hurr durr i cba to reprogress it - i killed it once ergo i have it on farm"

thats the toxicity im talking about

and thats what brought those addons/sites into game - because blizzard was to lazy to act on time and ban the f... out of them.

Why would they ban a beneficial add-on? I don't want to group with people who i would have to carry. Simple as that

[epLe]

Why would they ban a beneficial add-on? I don't want to group with people who i would have to carry. Simple as that

1. Because those addons cause a lot of toxicity.
2. Because you want to get carried yourself.
3. WoW would be a much better place without people thinking they "have to" or "carry" ever.

[Sylvaeres]

1. Because those addons cause a lot of toxicity.
2. Because you want to get carried yourself.
3. WoW would be a much better place without people thinking they "have to" or "carry" ever.

Ya sorry, but your little nonsensical statement that "I want to get carried" is simply that, nonsense. I run with the same 2 groups every week, complete my content, and that's all there is to say on that subject. Secondly, wow would be a better place if you didn't have these people begging for handouts, thinking they deserve to complete content that they wouldn't be able to complete themselves without other people letting them piggyback. In the wise words of LaVar Ball, "Stay in yo lane".

[david0925]

after re-reading this thread I realized that the word toxic has be redefined to "anything I don't like but can't find a good word for".

It's pretty offtopic and I do know I use the word that way too, but at this point it's so broadly used that it seems you can't really use the word "as concisely" anymore.

[Deleted]

1. Because those addons cause a lot of toxicity.
2. Because you want to get carried yourself.
3. WoW would be a much better place without people thinking they "have to" or "carry" ever.

Yeah, addons cause toxicity. Not people. Certainly not people. Only inanimate objects do negative things. That's what I also teach my kids - it's never their fault, it's other inanimate objects around them that cause something bad.
WoW would be a much better place if people were grouped completely random to complete common objectives without any way to weed out the leeches and monkeys. More LFR pls, but for M+ because it's working so good. Makes sense ... just tell the creator of LFR how good an idea it is, because he doesn't think that.

[shyguybman]

TFW your main is only 935 and everyone in here is shitting on people at that ilvl FeelsBadMan

[Deleted]

TFW your main is only 935 and everyone in here is shitting on people at that ilvl FeelsBadMan

Which toxic addon wrote this for you?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

What's even funnier is I did court 15 yesterday and everyone was 2k plus. We had statue and healer buffs and some one went to each and summoned two mini bosses. The healer realized the mistake and taunted one out trying 5o keep it away from the one we were killing. Two of the damage dealers started running over to it to try to get it to come back saying shit like "healer trolling omg" "ffs leave them, we can cleave." People who are apparently over qualified for the dungeon based on their score don't know the most basic part of it.

This is why the system needs to be blown up and created by some one who actually know what's important about evaluating pugs in dungeons.

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Exactly. I run my keys with friends. I also tank for PUGs. Let me see if a PUG is worthy my time and if not - let me have a tool to not make the same mistake again. Maybe a simple "You have ignored this PLAYER (not character)" would be enough. It's a tool (ignore) we already have, but for some strange reasons it's not getting any love.

Problem is the tool is entirely irrelevant when measuring the chance of success in the given dungeon. The score takes into account all the things that matter the least to pugs and should only matter to people regularly spending hours pushing their key to it's limits.

[Deleted]

This is why the system needs to be blown up and created by some one who actually know what's important about evaluating pugs in dungeons.

Problem is the tool is entirely irrelevant when measuring the chance of success in the given dungeon.

I agree with both statements. That's why I use raider.io for first glance, MPH for second glance and simple chat for third glance. Usually when I see at least 400-600 score I'm fine with the first glance. When I then see anything above 64 artifact levels + ever done m+10 + more than 10 m+ in time I'm fine. The last element is chat - if there is 0 chat communication prior to the run (and no signs of the rest just sitting in voicecomm) my experience says very clearly there's very high chance there will be leavers mid-through.
Having Blizzard's "set ilvl" and "voicecomm enabled" as the in-game tools to pick whom I spend my time with, I rather use 2 addons instead. Here's hoping I will be able to see somewhere in the future "total % of abandoned + nbr of completed & highest m+ completed for the dungeon queued for" from Blizzard directly. Not from 3rd party tools with their flaws.

[ID811717]

What's even funnier is I did court 15 yesterday and everyone was 2k plus.

To be more precise, you had 510ms spriest, 2030ms boomie and 1760ms demon hunter, right? The demon hunter has only completed 20 runs on 10+ in time (and at least 1 run on +15 in time), but his previous ranked CoS runs were +6 in time and +12 not in time. Out of your DPS players, only the boomie is at the point where his M+ score is not entirely random and meaningless: he has 166 runs on 10+ in time and 24 runs on 15+ in time.

That is why you should not use mythic plus scores for people that do not push, not until you start running +16 or higher. And even then you should look at the overall statistics for the people you invite.

People are complaining that M+ scores will be blindly used to form parties for low keys. That might have been exactly your fallacy with the demon hunter.

[Eurytos]

I believe everything is working as intended here.