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  1. #21
    Grunt Vidofiner's Avatar
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    I agree that silencing them is ineffectual. They should just perma-ban the toxic player. It would be a much easier way to fix the issue.

  2. #22
    Legendary! Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Then prepare to not do well if you don't take it seriously.
    With that mentality you'd think it wouldn't be difficult to admit a silence only hurts a player's team.

    It must be hard having to come up with a different move than trying to hold something over someone's head instead of participating in actual discussion. Or maybe you just actually don't know anything.

    I agree that silencing them is ineffectual. They should just perma-ban the toxic player. It would be a much easier way to fix the issue.
    but what defines toxic? in my experience the term is completely subjective. you might as well be saying "ban all assholes"

    personally, i don't like players carrying the "it's just a game" mentality. they should be permanently banned from competitive, it's very toxic and defeatist.

    I'm not going there to die. I'm going to find out if I'm really alive. I have to.

  3. #23
    The Patient wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    If a player actively uses voice communication to alert their team, plan attacks and choose team compositions then then their team is weaker for not having it.
    I think you are implying that the abusive individual is somehow also being productive by alerting and planning attacks. That's usually not the case. Most of the time, these people are just yelling and screaming at other people, calling them names for real or imagined fuck ups. In my experience, I can't think of a time I've heard someone being abusive while also providing critical game information.

    If a player is constantly harassing and abusing their team though, it does make the team weaker and leads to more losses. It's also not fun hearing someone verbally abuse people and be horrible. Sure, each person could just mute that abusive individual every time they cause a problem, but at that point it's already too late and the damage is done. If that individual is going into every match and being abusive, then they aren't using the voice communication in a productive way. Why shouldn't there be a system for the community to indicate this person isn't worth listening to?
    Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars.

  4. #24
    Legendary! Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    I think you are implying that the abusive individual is somehow also being productive by alerting and planning attacks. That's usually not the case. Most of the time, these people are just yelling and screaming at other people, calling them names for real or imagined fuck ups. In my experience, I can't think of a time I've heard someone being abusive while also providing critical game information.
    It completely removes the option to suggest any strategy to any number of players for as long as they are silenced. They can't communicate that they will play x hero if someone else plays y hero. They cannot give advice etc.

    The only person a silence benefits is someone who is too lazy to block a player.

    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    It's also not fun hearing someone verbally abuse people and be horrible. Sure, each person could just mute that abusive individual every time they cause a problem, but at that point it's already too late and the damage is done. If that individual is going into every match and being abusive, then they aren't using the voice communication in a productive way. Why shouldn't there be a system for the community to indicate this person isn't worth listening to?
    Frustration is natural in a competitive environment. If you're not disappointed every time you lose a game then you don't want to win bad enough to play competitive and there is a mode for this mentality - it is called quickplay.

    I mean, sucks that nobody there plays tank or healer and your 6 dps instalock comp with two snipers can't do anything vs a team with two tanks, but the mode is called competitive, not "i'm gonna main sombra/hanzo in a structured environment where i am terrible & try to shit all over everyone and the whole point of the game by attemping to strongarm people into working around my hero match after match" mode.

    Toxicity is a community problem that is made worse by Blizzard's lazy design of comp that incorporates too many non-competitive players into the mode, but is the community's responsibility to own. And in my opinion, Blizzard really has no business mettling in it unless someone is making death threats or just being a bigot.

    A big part of toxicity in comp is disagreement over player etiquette and obligations. Blizzard can say what they want about it and they can suspend and silence as many players as they please - but until there is an agreement, the problem will continue to spiral out of control and become worse. They are really powerless to do anything because those same players will continue to do the same thing.

    I'm not going there to die. I'm going to find out if I'm really alive. I have to.

  5. #25
    The Patient wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    It completely removes the option to suggest any strategy to any number of players for as long as they are silenced. They can't communicate that they will play x hero if someone else plays y hero. They cannot give advice etc.

    The only person a silence benefits is someone who is too lazy to block a player.
    That person has a chance to not be abusive and help communicate constructively. If they choose not to do that, then the community can silence them. It's only permanent in the most extreme cases where the person continues to abuse their teammates. In most cases, people learn that it's not helpful and it stops.

    Frustration is natural in a competitive environment. If you're not disappointed every time you lose a game then you don't want to win bad enough to play competitive and there is a mode for this mentality - it is called quickplay.
    Being frustrated that you and your team isn't skilled enough to beat the other team isn't the same as being frustrated due to someone who is verbally abusing their teammates. In the former, you can walk away from that with a positive mind set and say, we can do better and this is what we need to work on. There's nothing you can do about someone who is just being a dick to everyone.

    Nobody likes these types of people and you see this in any team game, even IRL.

    I mean, sucks that nobody there plays tank or healer and your 6 dps instalock comp with two snipers can't do anything vs a team with two tanks, but the mode is called competitive, not "i'm gonna main sombra/hanzo in a structured environment where i am terrible & try to shit all over everyone and the whole point of the game by attemping to strongarm people into working around my hero match after match" mode.
    Those people who refuse to cooperate with their team sink to the bottom. People who do adapt to the situations, and work with their team will eventually rise in rank.

    Toxicity is a community problem that is made worse by Blizzard's lazy design of comp that incorporates too many non-competitive players into the mode, but is the community's responsibility to own.
    I don't see how the system could be any different. How is the comp design 'lazy'?

    And in my opinion, Blizzard really has no business mettling in it unless someone is making death threats or just being a bigot.
    That's your opinion, but the majority of players do want something done about abusive players. This is something that the majority, if not all games that have player interaction eventually add.

    A big part of toxicity in comp is disagreement over player etiquette and obligations.
    People can have disagreements over player etiquette and obligations without being toxic or abusive. That still falls on the individual.

    They are really powerless to do anything because those same players will continue to do the same thing.
    It sounds like your main complaint are Hanzo/Sombra mains and you want to be able to abuse them in chat without being silenced.
    Last edited by wunksta; 2017-11-05 at 01:17 PM.
    Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars.

  6. #26
    Legendary! Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    That person has a chance to not be abusive and help communicate constructively. If they choose not to do that, then the community can silence them. It's only permanent in the most extreme cases where the person continues to abuse their teammates. In most cases, people learn that it's not helpful and it stops.
    *shrug* only hurts your team

    Being frustrated that you and your team isn't skilled enough to beat the other team isn't the same as being frustrated due to someone who is verbally abusing their teammates. In the former, you can walk away from that with a positive mind set and say, we can do better and this is what we need to work on. There's nothing you can do about someone who is just being a dick to everyone.

    Nobody likes these types of people and you see this in any team game, even IRL.
    you don't have to like somebody to win

    Those people who refuse to cooperate with their team sink to the bottom.
    au contraire, mon frère

    in a snowball effect communication is great, but if you don't have your entire team on it then it really makes no difference.

    match long mutes should be sufficient.

    I don't see how the system could be any different. How is the comp design 'lazy'?
    anyone who is level 25 can play comp. you can't expect players to respect the spirit of the game with a single prerequisite like that.

    People can have disagreements over player etiquette and obligations without being toxic or abusive. That still falls on the individual.
    tell that to Hillary Clinton

    It sounds like your main complaint are Hanzo/Sombra mains and you want to be able to abuse them in chat without being silenced.
    sounds like you spend too much time splitting quotes and drawing baseless conclusions.

    but i do become extremely tilted if a Hanzo or Sombra expects me to be the carry. Doesn't feel like it's worth investing my time & effort into the match, clearly demonstrates this player is not on my level and does not deserve to play the game with me. It's like a slap in the face and lighting a bag of dog shit on fire and ringing my doorbell before the match has even started.

    I usually let it go with Widow because even a bad Widow is a good distraction and can get lucky picks. But it does get irritating when you lose a frustrating match with 50-70% of kills on a team with 4 dps.

    I'm not going there to die. I'm going to find out if I'm really alive. I have to.

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    But the problem is that knowing Blizzard, they will still silence players, they won't look into why this behavior has become a growing problem, they won't admit that there is a problem with the core values and foundation of competitive play and will blame it on the community even though the community was fine last year.

    Youtubers are only just now touching on stuff like this really outlining just HOW BAD it is when a lot of people have been dealing with this shit a lot earlier than season 5.
    The game has massively expanded since last year and Blizzard can't force people to act mature, it is 3/4 the communities fault, I really tire of people blaming Blizzard for peoples shit attitudes especially when the game brought in so many people from toxic games like CoD and such.

    Doesn't feel like it's worth investing my time & effort into the match, clearly demonstrates this player is not on my level and does not deserve to play the game with me.
    What rank are you? Because if they are in your rank they obviously belong there with you, that is stupid ass thing to say to try and make yourself seem cool but really you sound like an idiot.
    Last edited by Seefer; 2017-11-05 at 06:20 PM.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #28
    The Patient wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    *shrug* only hurts your team
    And my point is that abusive chat hurts your team as well.

    you don't have to like somebody to win
    And you don't have to listen to abusive people to win.

    in a snowball effect communication is great, but if you don't have your entire team on it then it really makes no difference.
    Sorry, I don't really understand this. You don't need to have all 6 people be active in chat to make a difference. I've been in plenty of matches where no one talks and everything goes smoothly. I've also been in matches where only one or two people communicate and it's gone smoothly. Any amount of constructive chat can help improve gameplay, but I don't think allowing someone being abusive helps in anyway. Reports from game developers have shown that abusive chat is linked to lower winrates, across different games.

    match long mutes should be sufficient.
    I wouldn't think so, since these people tend to only start flaming and being abusive when someone messes up or thinks someone isn't pulling their weight. Then it starts snowballing and people get titled. So my point is that by the time someone gets muted in the match in your scenario, they've already ruined the experience for the 5 other people. And then they go into the next match and ruin it for another 5, and so on and so forth. If this person is continually ruining other people's experience, why shouldn't they be muted for a while? They aren't helping the teams through communication, just pissing people off.
    Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars.

  9. #29
    Legendary! Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    The game has massively expanded since last year and Blizzard can't force people to act mature, it is 3/4 the communities fault, I really tire of people blaming Blizzard for peoples shit attitudes especially when the game brought in so many people from toxic games like CoD and such.
    But it IS their fault.

    Anyone can queue for competitive. That's absurd.

    Players have to show no measure of skill or what they are willing to do to win, their competitiveness as it were, to play the mode. The game has a bit of depth to it - a player who has won 500 competitive games and participated in more than a thousand games should not be playing with players who just picked up the game and want to main Torbjorn with practically next to no knowledge of what it implicates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    What rank are you? Because if they are in your rank they obviously belong there with you, that is stupid ass thing to say to try and make yourself seem cool but really you sound like an idiot.
    you don't belong at ANY rank in competitive if your objective of every match is not to win

    people queue up for comp and their objective is to get a sick potg as hanzo, to get comp points for a tacky golden gun without really even having to play while they "play" torbjorn and watch netflix, to get more SR etc.

    players who don't play for victory do not deserve to queue for competitive. golden gun points, play of the game etc. All that shit belongs in Quick Play. Meaningless distractions. Players shouldn't even be able to see their SR and placement matches should be removed since they are such a significant source of tilt.

    Plus, we all know by now that placement matches don't mean shit. It's not like even if you're whooping everyone's ass it's going to immediately place you into Diamond from silver/gold by winning all 10 of your matches. That is still going to take a few hours to a week of play. You're already settled into your rank and placements effect your SR more or less by 200~ SR, for better or for worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    I wouldn't think so, since these people tend to only start flaming and being abusive when someone messes up or thinks someone isn't pulling their weight.
    As they should.

    If you say "I'll switch if it isn't working" you need to do it sooner than 0:18. Literally the only people who say this are players who have such a comically limited view of how the game is played. I can only imagine the excuses they come up with after managing their time poorly and manage to show up very late for an important event.

    If you are Lucio and you are dead all the time, you are doing something wrong. In fact, if you're playing ANY healer but Mercy and at the expense of a Mercy for your team ATM you are throwing just because of how stupid she is. Any team without a Mercy is disadvantaged.

    And before someone gets to it, I will agree that people do tend to focus on team comps a little more than they should, but it's just common sense that you're being a useless dick if you want to play Hanzo vs a cheese comp instead of easily demolishing a group of morons and getting a quick and easy capture on point A by counter picking.

    This brainless bullshit is so easy to counter and it even works on players in grand master. It is INSANE that you can queue up for competitive and not want to listen to someone who knows how to beat a team like that easily & has a winning strategy and want to instead spend the next 5 minutes wondering when it would be a good time to switch while you throw yourself into unshielded turret fire because you believe that scatter arrow is going to hit that beam and get a team kill headshot or whatever retarded useless Hanzo bullshit goes through a player's head when they pick him and continue to play him vs a comp that's got him shut out.

    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    Then it starts snowballing and people get titled. So my point is that by the time someone gets muted in the match in your scenario, they've already ruined the experience for the 5 other people. And then they go into the next match and ruin it for another 5, and so on and so forth. If this person is continually ruining other people's experience, why shouldn't they be muted for a while? They aren't helping the teams through communication, just pissing people off.
    I mean yeah, if you're just going to shit talk people you probably should be silenced since you aren't playing the game but if your experience got ruined by a little frustration or passionate disappointment, idk, competitive might just not be for you.
    Last edited by Gandrake; 2017-11-05 at 11:41 PM.

    I'm not going there to die. I'm going to find out if I'm really alive. I have to.

  10. #30
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    But it IS their fault.

    Anyone can queue for competitive. That's absurd.

    Players have to show no measure of skill or what they are willing to do to win, their competitiveness as it were, to play the mode. The game has a bit of depth to it - a player who has won 500 competitive games and participated in more than a thousand games should not be playing with players who just picked up the game and want to main Torbjorn with practically next to no knowledge of what it implicates.
    If they have no skill they go down to the bottom of the tier and stay there until they improve, and being a rotten prick because someone is bad is the players choice not Blizzards.........the world is made of choices you can't expect Blizzard to make the choice on if you are a jerk or not.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  11. #31
    Dreadlord Tommys's Avatar
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    I'd rather lose a game with nobody communicating rather than winning a game with some asshole spewing garbage.

  12. #32
    there right, go straight to bans instead, silence just does encourage people to troll because there upset they goot silenced

    and im not saying i dont have empathy,i understand people are toxic because there is so many throwers, memers, 1 tricks, also but the reason they do that is because they enjoy getting a reaction from people, they are sadistic.
    Last edited by arandomuser; 2017-11-06 at 07:31 AM.

  13. #33
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    Listen - the reality of the world is that consequences exist. You might not like or agree with what they are, but that's immaterial the fact that they exist.
    You need to be willing to accept the outcome of your choices - and if you're not willing to do that, then the choice can't matter much to you in the end.

    I got silenced for 2 days tonight; first time I've ever faced any disciplinary action since installing for the first time. I decided to try out Widowmaker in a QP game for the first time, and was getting harassed by this Winston on the enemy team. He was following me around the map, targeting me, running back towards spawn to kill me, etc. Then he was beating his chest in chat about how "bad" I was as a widow and how "bad" I should feel about it.

    I could have ignored him. I could have simply informed him I don't play her much. Instead I made a conscious choice to tell him that it was my first time playing her, and that he was an idiot for bragging about killing a newb on a character that doesn't even have to aim to kill people. I said it knowing full well he was the type of spiteful toolshed who would report me for saying it, and I suspected his friends were in group with him - Telling him off was important enough to me that I did so knowing full well that I might get in trouble for it. I knew the rules - and I decided insulting him was what I wanted to do.

    Rest assured, I was "silenced" not five minutes after the game ended for "reports of abusive chat" - now I get to deal with a hideous red box in my lower left corner that won't go away for two days... but guess what? It was worth it. I decided that I cared more about calling the guy out than I did staying un-silenced - and I'm willing to accept the outcome of that choice. That should be the take-away here;

    Rules in over-watch exist. One of the consequences of breaking them is getting a silence. Whether you like that or agree with it means nothing - the point is whether or not saying or doing what you want is important enough that risking those consequences is worth it to you. You can't have it both ways - you can't decide to break the rules and then refuse to accept the result of doing so.

  14. #34
    Why is it even needed? Are people that incapable of using mute/block? When I join a game, all my teammates typically get minimal chances before I block/mute. Screaming into your mic? Muted. Saying dumb/racist/sexist stuff either in regular chat or voice? Muted/blocked. Have your mic sensitivity so high I can hear you slamming your hands on your keyboard like a neanderthal? Muted. Toxic chat almost doesn't exist to me because I don't let it.

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